Sure says the guy who makes the solver? Party bans hud -> more pokerroom bans hud- > more people will buy solvers (mostly recs) / pre solved stuff, as some of the recs learn at least a little bit nowdays.
Ban the hud the next area to be a bit better in games are solvers. I think its unethical you make this kind of statments when have stake.

Saying who?

Stars says in official PDF:
Category 3 – Prohibited at all times
5)The practice of datamining hands or private results (observing games without playing in order to build up a database of hand histories for future reference); the use of hands or private results acquired through datamining; the mass sharing of hands, private results or playing statistics for the purpose of analysis of opponents.


This fool weasel Patrick Leonards not just described his staking group shares hand histories - everyone knows- but he wrote he gain unfair advantage:



I dont want his staking group to burn cause its not realistic I just want him to get permaban on Pokerstars just to get it official what everyone knows: he is a cheater weasel. Email sent to stars security.

punter: Should the big firms in stock market drop their algorythms and 3rd party tools so I can compete with "just my brain"?

All these "levelling the player field" changes are nothing but the sites driving regs' winrates to the ground in order to collect more rake.

Not that there's anything that we can do about that, other than cash out and support another site, but I find you or anyone arguing that they actually care about players very naive.

Maybe in your personal case it's not that you buy that, but that a hudless poker world would be good for the product that you are linked to?

We can keep talking in circles for hours.

In reality the only thing we can do is take your business somewhere else, in the end, this is not a charity and if they think this will net them the most revenue they will keep doing it. When they decided to implement a SNE type reward system was also a business decision, and nobody complained. If that would have significally increase revenue they wouldnt risk to do this type of stuff and scare that market share away.

Everybody bitched when amaya took over PS and turn it into a casino, so new sites came up to take the business that amaya clearly didnt want.

This is more of the same.

Well no...so lets make all the bots and solvers and scripts legal for real time use so poker is like stock market?

This! There will be couple of HUD friendly sites (PS, 888...) and couple of HUDless sites (PP, RIO, Unibet...) so everyone can choose what he likes.

That's very libertarian of you, but you're missing the point. It's not as simple as markets will auto correct, and new sites will fill voids.

What happens when/if all sites stop providing hand histories to users because of irrational arguments? Are you going to stop playing poker? Starting a new site that is profitable to offer environments because of one narrow issue is not easy or realistic. If it was, we'd already have a perfect online poker site based on the clear needs of the poker community. That hasn't happened yet, and may never.

Who got banned though?

It already happens to some scale, PS got rid of SNE, Party tried to take that share,

RIO was born on this concept, to think first about player need first. I dont think it happens overnight but eventaully it will.

Just to clarify, i am obviously against this stupidity, since it solves none of the problems that claims to solve. If nobody offers hhs anymore and its truly fair game and nobody can get an unfair edge getting them in some other way, i will have to adapt to this.

What i know is that we wont never know for sure all the real reasons behind this changes, we can have educated guesses ofc, but since they are clearly speaking for some other audience than us, similar to "more rake is actually better" i dont get caught in the stupidity of what they claim it will solve, im just realistic about what it can be done.

And if the Amaya changes on PS taught me something, is that the only thing you can actually do is take your business somewhere else. They already know everything that is posted here to some extent, they are just choosing to go in a different direction.

I am not a fan of this. I am playing a lot on party these days and I am a bit annoyed by the anonymous hand histories, but at least I have my own hand histories. So even though I can't have a HUD on other players, at least I can look at my own hands and look at mistakes I've made. This changes everything. Not sure if I will leave playing PartyPoker or not.

Maybe I will play without a HUD? Or I will do something else. Its their site in the end, they can make the rules whatever they want (if fair ofc) and I can only vote for/against by giving or not giving them bussines. The money will speak in the end, and it will speak louder than messages to support or 2+2 posts

R.I.P.
Partypoker
2009-2019

Your examples in over 15+ years of online poker are one site change, and a likely failed site?

You're still missing the main point which is the top 5 sites are nearly a monopoly of the market. Even though the regulars in these games are the main profit drivers for their sites, they can engage in rent seeking behavior because they know that no matter what they do, poker players (especially in certain countries), don't have many options to go elsewhere.

It's not about party poker. It's about what constitutes fair play and the security / integrity of the games online. We do have a say in that as their biggest customers, and they can choose not to listen. But we can voice our concerns, which is what people are doing. It's not pointless imho.

You play without a HUD, but others won't. That's the point you're missing. We are their bread and butter, and yes, you can go to other sites, until there are no other options available. Then you're either playing in a shady game, or not playing at all. I think voicing our concerns isn't empty rhetoric, but the responsible thing to do.

I have bad news for those of you who think removing HUDs is gonna be great for the recreational players. The majority of that "spare" money produced by slightly lowering the pros edge will go straight to the site in the form of rake.

And there will be others who dont play now but will begin But voicing your concerns is definitely the right thing to do, just dont expect it to be too much effective, its bussines in the end..

I honestly hope im proven wrong and they listen

What group of players is going to suddenly start playing now because HUDs and hand histories are no longer available?

Mostly live recreationals who know about third party tools, but dont really want to buy a tracker, set it up, buy HHs somwhere and then play with their screen covered with numbers. At least that was what my friend told me when I asked him why he never tried online play Obv I dont know how many of them are out there, but considering live poker is still going strong and Party is doing very good job with live events these days, they maybe have some kind of feedback from this group.

middle ground: allowing HH to be downloaded later on (for immediate review player can still use poker client HH replayer), ban on HUD during the games, keep allowed 3rd party tools (included HUD) for postgames analysis

and hoping nobody will cheat
or hoping pp security team will detect the eventual cheaters

The problem with this is the blackmarket with HHs, but maybe with the take on HHs that PokerTrakcer described above it would be possible.

Party is trying to build something like a tracker of their own with the MyGame feature, so the result will not be all the different from what you propose - ofc the funcionalities will be limited compared to current trackers.

So wrong in so many ways.

Agree. With all the regulations, licensing, you can't play here stuff, there are too many rooms competing for too many players. We see how greed played out with Lock. Need to attract players with your software and other perks.

I personally only use a hud when learning vp stats and stuff on a couple of tables. Do not play a ton of tables. Do not use huds in tourneys, sit n gos, nor speed poker (zone). I still win at sit n gos and tourneys, just don't need hud. That doesn't mean i do not need to review my hands. I base my game off my brain, do not use solvers (but speculated on game theory and poker back in 2011), Just learning my GTO and exploitation as I grow.

I have no skin in the game with Party, since they left the US. Its their own fault they do not have enough money to feed the kitty so to speak. Holding back hand histories will not solve their problems.

Nah, the others want traffic, or perceived traffic. Traffic with colluders and bots is not what these players are looking for

I communicated with Josem yesterday and today regarding this issue/thread, on behalf of Part Time Poker. Here is the interview article, published June 11th, 2019.

https://www.parttimepoker.com/partyp...y-restrictions

Josem said:

"We already know that this change will not reduce data-mining, but rather, it will leave partypoker players much more vulnerable to security risks."

"Blocking downloadable hand histories only harms the innocent and the law-abiding players."

"Someone who is deliberately data-mining is always going to be able to extract that data..."

"I don’t know if I would refer to this as an ‘OMG’ scenario… it just means more colluders, more bots, and more cheaters will go undetected on partypoker. That is a shame, but you know… it’s not the end of the world. There are other online poker sites that allow players to access their full and complete hand histories."
---

-David Huber

I think HUD or no HUDs, a lot of live recs struggle mightily playing online, because it's a much harder game. I think it's very easy to blame the most tangible, rather than abstract reason as an excuse for losing.

I don't want to argue hypotheticals. I'll just say pre-black friday, those same recs didn't seem to have issues because they were depositing and playing like there was no tomorrow. Again, what changed is it's not easy for recs to deposit and withdraw. If you had this process simple for most recs, and it was legal, they would eventually flock back.

I've proposed a reasonable solution to everyone's main concerns. If party is not open to that, that's on them. Personally, I don't play anywhere that game integrity is at issue. It's just not worth it to me. I've played poker long enough and seen enough shady things in this industry to know better. I don't think recs will know or care that the integrity of the game is compromised. But who cares about them right? They're just there to feed off.

This^^

I play regularly with winning live regulars at 5/10+ who would get legit destroyed at, say, 500nl on ignition and probably even struggle at 200.

It definitely isnt because of the existence of huds lol