Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235
That's pretty offensive to the fish. A lot of them are smart people who don't take poker that seriously and want a fair game where fair game includes having the same chance as others to play vs another rec (which is greatly diminished by predatory table selection tools) and to have a battle of the minds in actual play (which tools like HUDs make unfair). If the view is that "fish are fish, they don't deserve a fair game cause it doesn't matter" then I don't mind even smarter and more resourceful people winning all the reg money with their bots.
It's not a pool set in stone once. There are people who may want to try poker for fun and expect a fair game. Advertising gambling to college kids is just immoral. Maybe we should start advertising cigarettes to them as well as that's the easiest demographic to manipulate. Making the game fairer to the recreational players on whom the whole eco-system is based is exactly what the sites should do. I think you also should have more respect for people who provide you with a chance to make living playing a card game and you shouldn't oppose measures so they are not manipulated into the situations they don't even get a small % shot they hope for when sitting down to play.
So fish don't have access to the internet? How are they playing online if they don't have access? I assume they do and that just like any other hobby or sport, the people that put the work in and do their research rise to the top. Do you not agree with that? HUDs are available to everyone, fish/rec players included. There are free HUDs out there, and paid ones are pretty cheap.
I think what you're not understanding or acknowledging is that HUDs are always going to exist in online poker. It's just a matter of whether you want to take an extreme position that forces them into black markets or not.
GOALS -
1) To keep the games as fair as possible online.
2) Encourage rec / fishy players to play at online poker sites and maintain a healthy online poker eco system.
3) To ensure the safety and integrity of the games online.
Thus:
1) Whether you agree with HUDs or not, removing hand histories eliminates the possibility of goal #3 to have a third party that can safeguard against collusion, super users, and other shenanigans.
2) Online poker games have become more difficult and player pools have decreased because for several issues, but PRIMARILY because of only one issue. That issue is government banking regulations across multiple countries, the largest being America. I can verify this as a business owner who has sold online tools for the past 10 years online. Social media ads to average joe poker players sell considerably less in countries that have cracked down in online poker. Like 80%+ less.
Rec / Fish players won't jump through the same hoops to make online deposits, as professional or regular poker players. They want a simple and safe solution to deposit and withdraw.
HUDs and hand histories existed during the poker boom, they did not effect the poker eco system. Bad players are going to lose, whether a person has a HUD or not.
3)The way to ensure the games stay as fair as possible is to allow people to have access to all of the same tools. If you ban hand histories or HUDs, they will just go into black market. I remember 5-6 years ago a person here on 2+2 selling access to a banned tool to high stakes players for $3k/mo. It was a small number of people who had access to these tools (I was not one of them. I have no desire to cross ethical boundaries in this realm).
Just as in a tennis match or golf game, people have access to the same tools. It's on the competitor to do their research, find and use the best tools to win. And in the case of online poker, you don't need a $3k club to have a better advantage.
That's my 2 1/2 cents. I sell a HUD so I realize my view can be seen as slanted, but I consider myself a poker player first. Before I sold these tools I always thought hand histories and HUDs were great tools for studying my own game, tracking my results, and ensuring that I was playing in an honest game.
My personal solution:
Keep hand histories, and allow HUDs. Create fair regulations for what HUDs can contain in them. Provide a free basic HUD to all rec / fish players on sites and/or make them aware of available tools. Allow poker players to change their player names whenever they want. Do not allow observed tables to track data / hand histories. This will ensure the integrity of our games, while allowing a fair playing field for everyone.