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View Poll Results: Your position on the actions taken by PBKC and WSOP
Completely agree. 120 38.71%
Completely disagree. 44 14.19%
Should lose position & 1 year ban. 63 20.32%
Should lose $$$ & position & 1 year ban. 47 15.16%
Bastard! 36 11.61%
Voters: 310. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-18-2014, 12:19 PM   #151
Redlocks
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Fish Taco View Post
Well you have yet to provide real proof other than what you have said. I would expect a worthy source to at least know how to spell and quote messages right, neither of which you know how to do.

Plus this is all the confirmation we need that it indeed was just a mistake.


If Chainsaw says something, we must listen and accept.
As you can see I'm new to 2+2 and forums in general. So I don't know chainsaw... but I DO know common sense and common sense + the known facts disagree. As for your not trusting my source, take it or leave it. But please be sure to get back to this thread and comment once all comes out and everything I said here is confirmed.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:31 PM   #152
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Redlocks View Post
Get yourself up to date.... There is NO LONGER ANY DEBATE he stole MORE THAN 2 chips and BEFORE the end of play...
Redlocks,

You don't seem to be very reasonable here. You are asserting facts, and that there is "no longer any debate" about these facts when you refuse to reveal the source of your alleged facts.

If you want to keep your alleged sources secret, that's fine, but you can't be angry when people don't trust what you are saying because of it. From our point of view, you are an incredibly biased participant in this discussion who is simultaneously only providing us with hearsay information that benefits yourself.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:54 PM   #153
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

If you are a tournament player and are defending this bozo for any reason you need to have your head examined. Facts are he took chip(s) off the table at the end of the tournament knowing full well especially after the Borgata incident that is clearly wrong. He has been in numerous tournaments and now all his cashes should be suspect. He needs to be banned from ALL future tournaments to send a clear message this BS will not be tolerated by the casinos
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:22 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by pokervangelist View Post
If you are a tournament player and are defending this bozo for any reason you need to have your head examined. Facts are he took chip(s) off the table at the end of the tournament knowing full well especially after the Borgata incident that is clearly wrong. He has been in numerous tournaments and now all his cashes should be suspect. He needs to be banned from ALL future tournaments to send a clear message this BS will not be tolerated by the casinos
How does taking a single chip off of a table after play was concluded relate at all to what happened at the Borgota?

Again... Some of you need to stop throwing stones at this guy until solid information is released.

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Old 02-18-2014, 01:23 PM   #155
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Redlocks View Post
First of all, don't you dare call me a "nice guy" you Monkey. We all know thatís BS. We are both A**holes. Everyone on here knows who I am because I have no problem with confrontation or speaking my mind in person or online.

Second, Yes, I was @ FT & finished 3rd. So this isn't spite. This is me having real & honest concerns as to whether or not I was robbed of 10K, 20K or even my first ring. For a donkey like me, that is serious. WAY too many issues line up make this situation more than suspect & to think everyone will just say, ďahhh itís OK, just forget it you silly ChanĒ is absurd. I didnít steal anything. I didnít cheat. I didnít have chipS in my pocket just before entering MEÖ Get real.
ZK,

I believe every thing you said until anything different comes out after investigation .

I see many pro comes out to defend this kind of incidence and this kind of scumbags !!

Even this was for souvenir this should be dealt with very hard punishment due to potential of misuse in future event.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:30 PM   #156
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by pokervangelist View Post
He needs to be banned from ALL future tournaments to send a clear message this BS will not be tolerated by the casinos
Do you think it is possible that a heavier or lighter punishment might be appropriate to apply here? Or is this the only possible resolution that is acceptable here?

Is there any information that might come to light that might change your mind on this being the perfect resolution?
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:41 PM   #157
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Had to reply, despite my fear of even partially dipping my toes into the blood-thirsty, shark infested waters of 2+2. It's amazing the conclusions the majority of posters on here arrive at with zero knowledge of this young man, or the circumstances.

1) I just finished 38th in the main. I remember succinctly, the 25k chip wasn't even introduced until after we colored up the 500 chips. That happened after we were ITM. The ability and/or timing that would allow a player to 'sneak in' a 25k without being noticed wills have been impossible until the final two tables.

2) I had the guy at my table in one other prelim this week, the Omaha that he won, and the 1k. IMO (if you choose to value my opinion) he is a very good player. More than capable to win tourneys without cheating. In addition to that, he was a very personable guy, great personality. I know that might not matter to some of you judging him, but I KNOW 'scummy' and 'douche bag' and this guy is neither.

3) asking the TD for a souvenir chip is always going to be denied. Most of you are well aware of that. I'm sure he is/was too.

4) Bad judgement? Yes, 100%. That cannot be denied. I'm sure he is hating himself for it right now.

5) I spoke to a friend of his who told me he's been to his home, where he has this table, with Chips embedded into it of all these tourneys he's been to and played. That in itself should make it obvious what his purpose is/was. Some people collect match books. Or ticket stubs. Beer cans. All kinds of ****. This guy just kind of chose something that is heavily discouraged from taking. So he is guilty of choosing the wrong collectible item. Period.

6) There is ONE circuit event annually at the Kennel Club. The insinuation that he is stealing a chip so he can have a prototype to go manufacture a bunch more is just ridiculous.

7) That his wins are now 'tainted' is really a shame. That his check for winning the Omaha tourney had a stop payment put on it (true story-confirmed) is pathetic. I hope to god this doesn't destroy his poker career. But I've seen this time and time again (to me, for those who know me and my various plights)in the poker industry where there is no fair hearing, no chance for the player to explain his side of things. They just drop the gavel and he player is screwed. As poker players....all of you, you should be very concerned with how these situations are handled by poker management. Because it could just as easily happen to you. And we all know the thing that casinos hide behind: 'you can't sue us. We can deny entry to anyone we want, for whatever reason, period!' You all think that is fair?

8) Question to ponder: should they (WSOP staff) decide to ban his guy, rip his title away, and take away his prize money...where does that money go? Love to hear the opinions on that one.

Sorry so long. I'm driving 12 hours home to Biloxi....so had a lot of time to think!!!

Will 'Monkey' Souther
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:48 PM   #158
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by riverph7 View Post
ZK,

I believe every thing you said until anything different comes out after investigation .

I see many pro comes out to defend this kind of incidence and this kind of scumbags !!

Even this was for souvenir this should be dealt with very hard punishment due to potential of misuse in future event.
IMO he should be 86'd from WSOP events for atleast a year. Whatever reason he gives for taking the chip or chips does not change the fact that it is theft and there is a possibility that the chip or chips could be used for cheating in a future tourney. The TDs need to crack down on any possible ways to cheat inorder to help deter future attempts.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:58 PM   #159
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by ThePokerMonkey View Post
Had to reply, despite my fear of even partially dipping my toes into the blood-thirsty, shark infested waters of 2+2. It's amazing the conclusions the majority of posters on here arrive at with zero knowledge of this young man, or the circumstances.

1) I just finished 38th in the main. I remember succinctly, the 25k chip wasn't even introduced until after we colored up the 500 chips. That happened after we were ITM. The ability and/or timing that would allow a player to 'sneak in' a 25k without being noticed wills have been impossible until the final two tables.

2) I had the guy at my table in one other prelim this week, the Omaha that he won, and the 1k. IMO (if you choose to value my opinion) he is a very good player. More than capable to win tourneys without cheating. In addition to that, he was a very personable guy, great personality. I know that might not matter to some of you judging him, but I KNOW 'scummy' and 'douche bag' and this guy is neither.

3) asking the TD for a souvenir chip is always going to be denied. Most of you are well aware of that. I'm sure he is/was too.

4) Bad judgement? Yes, 100%. That cannot be denied. I'm sure he is hating himself for it right now.

5) I spoke to a friend of his who told me he's been to his home, where he has this table, with Chips embedded into it of all these tourneys he's been to and played. That in itself should make it obvious what his purpose is/was. Some people collect match books. Or ticket stubs. Beer cans. All kinds of ****. This guy just kind of chose something that is heavily discouraged from taking. So he is guilty of choosing the wrong collectible item. Period.

6) There is ONE circuit event annually at the Kennel Club. The insinuation that he is stealing a chip so he can have a prototype to go manufacture a bunch more is just ridiculous.

7) That his wins are now 'tainted' is really a shame. That his check for winning the Omaha tourney had a stop payment put on it (true story-confirmed) is pathetic. I hope to god this doesn't destroy his poker career. But I've seen this time and time again (to me, for those who know me and my various plights)in the poker industry where there is no fair hearing, no chance for the player to explain his side of things. They just drop the gavel and he player is screwed. As poker players....all of you, you should be very concerned with how these situations are handled by poker management. Because it could just as easily happen to you. And we all know the thing that casinos hide behind: 'you can't sue us. We can deny entry to anyone we want, for whatever reason, period!' You all think that is fair?

8) Question to ponder: should they (WSOP staff) decide to ban his guy, rip his title away, and take away his prize money...where does that money go? Love to hear the opinions on that one.

Sorry so long. I'm driving 12 hours home to Biloxi....so had a lot of time to think!!!

Will 'Monkey' Souther
I dont see how they can take his prize money away unless they review tapes and see him introduced chips out of pocket.
As far as a penalty in future events I think 1 year is about right but maybe an example needs to be made on a permaban to prevent send message this cant be tolerated.
To justify and defend what he did is inexcusable as a major rule was broken akin to taking chips out of the dealer rack or out of a player stack and leaving the table
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:02 PM   #160
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Redlocks View Post
As you can see I'm new to 2+2 and forums in general. So I don't know chainsaw... but I DO know common sense and common sense + the known facts disagree. As for your not trusting my source, take it or leave it. But please be sure to get back to this thread and comment once all comes out and everything I said here is confirmed.
You've been a member for more than a year.

If you don't know who Allen "chainsaw" Kessler is than you have absolutely no credibility in NVG.

Is your middle initial S?
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:15 PM   #161
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Fish Taco View Post
You've been a member for more than a year.

If you don't know who Allen "chainsaw" Kessler is than you have absolutely no credibility in NVG.

Is your middle initial S?
Redlocks name is Zach Kessler ironic isnt it-lol. But I 100% believe what he has said
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:30 PM   #162
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Redlocks name is Zach Kessler ironic isnt it-lol. But I 100% believe what he has said
I know but I want to know if his middle initial is S

It is pretty funny his last name is Kessler and he doesn't know who chainsaw is.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:11 PM   #163
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

Lusardi started out taking "souvenir" chips from the tables, lol.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:15 PM   #164
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

no he brought souvenirs for the other players. thoughtful chap.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:17 PM   #165
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by ThePokerMonkey View Post
5) I spoke to a friend of his who told me he's been to his home, where he has this table, with Chips embedded into it of all these tourneys he's been to and played. That in itself should make it obvious what his purpose is/was. Some people collect match books. Or ticket stubs. Beer cans. All kinds of ****. This guy just kind of chose something that is heavily discouraged from taking. So he is guilty of choosing the wrong collectible item. Period.
Can this friend post a pic? And maybe some proof that there is no "new car smell" to the table? Perhaps an old Twitter or Facebook post of the table with a date? Also, if he could provide info on each chip in this table (what event, his overall finish, etc) that would be helpful. If he was really making a "Final Table Table" (as I am going to call this henceforth) I think this would help his cause...
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:43 PM   #166
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

Does anyone have current Wsopc, HPT, WPT ect "souvenir" chips that they no longer want to collect for sale all I can find on eBay are "retired" chips?
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:24 PM   #167
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
How does taking a single chip off of a table after play was concluded relate at all to what happened at the Borgota?

Again... Some of you need to stop throwing stones at this guy until solid information is released.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using 2+2 Forums
It doesn't have to relate to Borgata. Would you agree many methods of cheating or stealing exist that could lead to the loss of integrity in poker?

Stop living in a vacuum. Honest mistakes do happen. I will cede that point; However, based on this guys experience and his friends bragging about his "souvenir" collection, this was not an honest mistake.

His intent was to steal at least one large denomination chip from a set of private property chips. The chips are owned by PBKC. They have value both in play and out of play.

Whether he was going to use it in the main, counterfeit it in quantities, or just place it on his wall as a soveneiur is irrelevant. He attempted to steal and got caught.

We shall see how it plays out.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:10 PM   #168
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

lol sensless... wp sir

Last edited by numberonepat; 02-18-2014 at 05:10 PM. Reason: #SHOWERS
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:15 PM   #169
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

I am happy to address all the questions & comments posted above.

Josem – “….but you can't be angry when people don't trust what you are saying”

I am not “angry”. I find it laughable that anyone with common sense that wasn’t raised in a corn field could possibly believe this to be an innocent souvenir OR an isolated occurrence.

bigtex21 – “Whatever reason he gives for taking the chip or chips does not change the fact that it is theft and there is a possibility that the chip or chips could be used for cheating in a future tourney. The TDs need to crack down on any possible ways to cheat inorder to help deter future attempts.”

I agree. The two things I can’t stand are a thief & a cheater. No matter how you look at it, he is absolutely guilty of 1. According to WSOP rules, he is guilty of BOTH.


Florida_Muppets - "His intent was to steal at least one large denomination chip from a set of private property chips. The chips are owned by PBKC. They have value both in play and out of play. Whether he was going to use it in the main, counterfeit it in quantities, or just place it on his wall as a souvenir is irrelevant. He attempted to steal and got caught."

Agreed. And if anyone wants to say I’m bias, OK. But I do have an immediate & first party interest in this outcome as it affects me directly. Again, no reasonable mind could just find this all kosher.


Fish Taco – “You've been a member for more than a year. If you don't know who Allen "chainsaw" Kessler is than you have absolutely no credibility in NVG.”

If you would look a bit further, you would see that I have only been on this site once when I signed up & once to place a post. Sorry if I’ve had better things to do than get familiar with your 2+2 handles. In fact, I couldn’t tell you the name of even a single user name. Not interested. Bottom line is NONE of that has any bearing on the case at hand. I’m simply giving first hand info that will be shown accurate when they allow you to know the facts from the official source. If you question my credibility & don’t want to believe it, lol, that’s OK. At the end of the day you will have zero influence on the outcome. More rational heads will prevail.
**But it is kinda ironic that it was Allen Kessler. Lol.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:18 PM   #170
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by balooko31 View Post
Can this friend post a pic? And maybe some proof that there is no "new car smell" to the table? Perhaps an old Twitter or Facebook post of the table with a date? Also, if he could provide info on each chip in this table (what event, his overall finish, etc) that would be helpful. If he was really making a "Final Table Table" (as I am going to call this henceforth) I think this would help his cause...
This is an excellent follow up question, and pretty similar to what I said at the table when this friend of his was explaining all this about his 'Souvenir Chip Table.' My response verbatim, was that if he could provide immediate photographic proof that he has this collector's piece at his home...and that he's just kind of a memorabilia junkie, it would go very far in exonerating him or at least reducing any punishment handed down. If it's true, I would assume he's had the common sense to clear that hurdle in the first 24 hours after it happened.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:21 PM   #171
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Edgelooker1 View Post
Lusardi started out taking "souvenir" chips from the tables, lol.
Probably the funniest comment on this thread. Boy...has Lusardi ever done to the name 'Lusardi' in poker what Sandusky did to the name 'Sandusky' in football, or what?
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:29 PM   #172
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
This thread is a disaster.

If you guys are going to accuse people of things and make wild claims about them you should be using sources. Saying anything about this story is "not up for debate" at this point is comical.

You guys are making such a big deal about something we know so little about. So little has been confirmed and so little is known about what happened. The tweets and "leaks" have included misinformation as has already been pointed out. Why take any parts of it seriously?

Assuming he did take a tournament chip(s) off the table -- what rule did he break? How is removing chips from a table a "crime?" What is the criminal punishment? How does it effect play? Where does it say PBKC can refuse to pay him? If this happened after he already won does that change anything? Why do all these reports keep saying there is a "commission?" Why do they keep saying the state is conducting an investigation with PBCK when the state doesn't have the authority to do that?

So much of the "information" out there is not really information. Stop relying on speculation and rumors to throw a guy under the bus.
Kudos to you for having the sensibility to grant this kid Chan the benefit of the doubt. I know, personally, how it feels to be wrongfully accused of something, or have something happen to me where I didn't know how to unravel...and once you fall into the 2+2 'blender' of scandal-building...it sometimes just grows to epic proportions, and is fueled by people who have zero knowledge on the person or the subject being talked about. I find the poker community is one of the most 'lynch mob' members of society. And it sucks...because I know a LOT of really great people who I've made friends in the poker world over the last ten years...and I wish players would be more 'us' against 'them' and stick together more than what we seem to see on a daily basis. It's like one players slips up, or makes an error in judgment...and everyone gathers in a circle above a pit of flesh devouring pigs (think: scene from Hannibal when Cordell pushes that wheel chair bound psychopath over the side) as the person being discussed is lowered, one cynical comment at a time...into the pit. It's brutal.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:35 PM   #173
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

Come on. Can't believe a white guy with dreds.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:35 PM   #174
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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No way- Hope your armed and have triple A

You are near Kennedy space station. Not a bad area. You should have left a long time ago instead of playing that nitty 1/2 game. At least your neighbor was stacked...
Ha! Nitty game indeed! People rebuying for like $40 over and over! Nitty is an understatement! To be honest...i played 2/5 the whole night before waiting on my friend Claudia to finish up....she did, 15th, taking a brutal beat, and the 2/5 game was insane...people playing like they all had a money tree in their back yard. It was crazy, and I took some wild swings. Didn't feel like a repeat of that. And we just decided to play for those $500 High-hand promotions all day (she won one...I didn't) before leaving. We like to drive at night...no traffic, better mileage, and no sun glare to interfere with watching movies on my dashboard stereo! Lucked out on the running out of gas thing...a cop showed up about 10 minutes later and helped me out. Okay...so I'm curious Muppets...which guy were you at the table? And which 'neighbor' are you talking about that got stacked?

Monk
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:54 PM   #175
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Re: Palm beach wsopc 25k chip stolen from FT

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Originally Posted by Fish Taco View Post
Hard to believe you when you can't even spell tolerance.



Karma for ripping off all your friends and investors. Also you're an idiot for typing all that out while driving. Put other people lives in danger because you had to give your input on the situation. Not that I'd expect you to care about other people considering your history.

Fish Taco. I won't get in the gutter with you. No sense in it. Before you call me an idiot, it may behoove you to know that I had on my Bose head set, and was using the voice recorder to type out my comments. You could, I suppose make a case for watching movies while I drive...but (a) my ADHD makes me an incredible multi-tasker (b) I actually woke Claudia up to tell her to put on her seat belt, because I DO care about my friends (c)'considering my history?' what history is that? The history that includes me raising thousands from my 1900+ distribution email list for the Tsunami victims in 2005, the Katrina victims in 2006, the tornado victims in Alabama in 2010, the Japan Tsunami/Earthquake victims, the Haitian earthquake, or the hospital/funeral bills for former WSOP dealer and floor person Casey Jones? Are those the part of the history you're talking about? I know...I'm probably the most uncaring person in poker, aren't I? (d) You want to beat that dead horse that is my staking deals? Why? Because like so many in your peer group it makes you furious that someone with modest stats like me is able to essentially raise 100% of my buyins for a 50% freeroll? And decide its incumbent upon you to deem me a ripoff artist and my investors as a bunch of idiots and/or victims? Sorry Fishy Taco...I make no attempts to apologize for my own personal, non-conforming to 2+2 members' staking standards, staking deals. My investors? They have been paid for their investments on 75% of the deals they've backed me on. They aren't in as a 'business' but more so as a fun little sweat on a guy they've gotten to know the past decade or two through the many ventures they've been involved with me in. A lot of these people are millionaires, business owners, and are brilliant financial minds. They don't need a bunch of people who they could buy and sell 100 times over telling them how 'stupid' they are. The fun little 350+ thread on my Facebook wall this week was actually a lot of fun. Watching people demonstrate for the entire social media world just how envious they are and how that envy leads to such virulent spite-filled posts was kind of a study in human nature more than anything. If I were doing something 'unethical' or 'scammish' do you think I would leave my setting on Facebook where ANYONE could leave a comment? Do you think I would leave all the comments on my wall? When I could easily delete them as soon as they appeared? That I wouldn't block the guys making toxic comments? Just a little something to think about Mr. Fish Taco. I don't know who you are (maybe I do, if I saw your face) and frankly, it doesn't matter. You are free to speak your mind, I respect that. But maybe you could take a shot at actually getting to know me, the person, before undressing me on 2+2 for a bunch of our peers to read? Ya think?
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