Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2017, 02:04 AM   #1301
Professionalpoker
 
Professionalpoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: @propoker
Posts: 16,221
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
Professionalpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2017, 03:03 AM   #1302
The Imp
adept
 
The Imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,132
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
The following two threads could be merged, they're about the same story and are both on the front page of NVG -

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...00-me-1206724/
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tyler-1661197/
The Imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2017, 03:53 AM   #1303
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
Agree.

One DP/youtube thread is plenty. I closed the latest one that had less than 30 posts and linked to the main thread.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2017, 03:56 AM   #1304
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
The following two threads could be merged, they're about the same story and are both on the front page of NVG -

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...00-me-1206724/
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tyler-1661197/
Locked the one thread but kept the original Booth thread intact as it has been around for a long time.

Polk's stuff is going to stay contained where possible.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2017, 01:24 AM   #1305
dankhank
dankest of hanks
 
dankhank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: for me the action is the juice
Posts: 7,775
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Many years ago when online poker started and many of us discovered 2+2 there was a shared idea that poker would be something we did for the rest of our lives and that our reputations would stick with us and matter.

With that in mind, 2+2 seemed like a great, transparent place to police people and seek justice.

Very little about the poker world turned out as expected (and the unimportance of ethics was one of the more surprising aspects) but it's cool to see all these years later that sometimes 2+2 is able to serve as an effective judge and jury. Well done to Bobo Fett and everyone else involved in helping that Klang dude get paid back.
dankhank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2017, 02:11 PM   #1306
Sect7G
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calling a spade a spade
Posts: 10,366
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Would like to congratulate Bobo for his handling of the Zima/Klang debacle. With such a complex issue involving multiple parties and large amounts of money it's nearly impossible to work everything out to everyone's satisfaction. The balance between transparency and actually getting a resolution done probably wasn't an easy task to decide, but I think Bobo found the right balance. Well done sir.
Sect7G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2017, 07:27 PM   #1307
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G View Post
Would like to congratulate Bobo for his handling of the Zima/Klang debacle. With such a complex issue involving multiple parties and large amounts of money it's nearly impossible to work everything out to everyone's satisfaction. The balance between transparency and actually getting a resolution done probably wasn't an easy task to decide, but I think Bobo found the right balance. Well done sir.
Well said and I completely agree.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2017, 03:13 PM   #1308
OnMyBike
adept
 
OnMyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere cool
Posts: 743
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Hi guys, I just wanted to register my concern that the detailed events of the Zima/Klang debacle have been effectively purged.

In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled. Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future. The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.

I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought. But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way. Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened. I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
OnMyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2017, 05:29 AM   #1309
The Imp
adept
 
The Imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,132
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Hi guys, I just wanted to register my concern that the detailed events of the Zima/Klang debacle have been effectively purged.

In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled. Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future. The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.

I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought. But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way. Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened. I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
I agree with this... but it's likely Zima wouldn't pay unless his demands were met. Removing a lot of the info from public view sucks for the next person Paul Dlugozima attempts to scam/steal from - but given the amount of money involved I think the mods made the right choice in this case.
The Imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2017, 08:09 PM   #1310
ipuntstacks
centurion
 
ipuntstacks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 181
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
ipuntstacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2017, 05:40 PM   #1311
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipuntstacks View Post
Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
Sounds good! Beers with Yayo on the jukebox.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 10:29 PM   #1312
ddlloo12
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 455
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

think was handled okay since obviously zima held the editing of the post over punts head to get paid. Would have been better to leave comments in but getting the person scammed paid should be the priority. Just hoping the forums dont allow trading in threads or marketplace approval for someone who could use these boards to potentially harm or scam others.
ddlloo12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 01:10 AM   #1313
OnMyBike
adept
 
OnMyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere cool
Posts: 743
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddlloo12 View Post
think was handled okay since obviously zima held the editing of the post over punts head to get paid. Would have been better to leave comments in but getting the person scammed paid should be the priority. Just hoping the forums dont allow trading in threads or marketplace approval for someone who could use these boards to potentially harm or scam others.
If your assumptions are right that makes it worse. People are encouraged not to come clean or engage in discussion about their questionable behaviour and instead blackmail the victim until they agree to sweep it under the rug and they can move on to the next mark.

I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken. From the lack of discussion here it feels like this thread is where concerns are sent to die.
OnMyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 01:11 AM   #1314
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken.
There was.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 03:34 AM   #1315
OnMyBike
adept
 
OnMyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere cool
Posts: 743
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Oh good. Case closed. Glad I took the time to engage.
OnMyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 03:55 AM   #1316
Bobo Fett
2+2 Ad Man
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 45,048
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled.
It can be, depending on the content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future.
If the thread had been outright deleted, I'd be more inclined to agree with this. In this case, I'm pretty sure the amount of damage done to Zima's reputation is far greater than the clean-up it got at the end.

Also, look at the flip side. It's very possible people would be more reluctant to post threads like that one if they believed that there would be absolutely no chance of anything being edited out afterwards, in case that became a sticking point to them being repaid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of people refusing to repay unless something is edited/deleted - if you owe money, pay it. I'm also not a fan of people who create threads simply for the purposes of getting paid, and then would happily have us delete everything to get their money, without a care of whether the community is warned or not (speaking in general terms here, not specifically about this situation). But I'm willing to be flexible when I think it makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.
I think the length of time is still clear, and I believe all of the important allegations and evidence are still there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought.
Appreciated, and not taken as an attack at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way.
Admittedly this is one piece that was lost - the fact that Zima never responded in the thread. I don't think it's a *huge* deal, but I understand that some people would feel differently, and if I went back and did it again perhaps I'd make sure it was mentioned in the summary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened.
I also think that summary heavily underplays the way that OP reads now. It's pretty clear in that OP that this was more than just "mistakes made".

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
Fair enough. Most of it was the usual NVG banter, but of course hearing a lot of opinions and from people that may know one party or the other, or have a unique perspective, has some value. Even if there wasn't any new allegations posted (and I don't believe there was), there's no question that page after page of people coming down on the group wasn't good for them, and removing it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
I agree with this... but it's likely Zima wouldn't pay unless his demands were met.
This is perhaps a bit too simplistic. Zima and Marc discussed this, and came to an agreement of what should be removed. Some of it because it was exaggerated/inaccurate, some for legal reasons, and of course some of it because it was in Zima's best interest. They came to me with their agreement, and not all of it was accepted - they needed to compromise with me as well, as I thought some of their edits went a bit too far. So his "demands" weren't fully met, but at the same time, I'm not saying he would have paid if we refused to edit/delete anything, so there's certainly a great deal of merit to your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipuntstacks View Post
Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
You're welcome - glad it all got resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
If your assumptions are right that makes it worse. People are encouraged not to come clean or engage in discussion about their questionable behaviour and instead blackmail the victim until they agree to sweep it under the rug and they can move on to the next mark.
Unquestionably a big concern, which is why, in my mind, outright deletion was never on the table.

This kind of thing has happened numerous times, and most people don't hear about it because it's a scam for a few hundred or a few thousand, and not posted here in NVG (because this isn't where these sort of threads normally belong) - scammers say they refuse to pay unless everything is deleted. Such requests are usually denied. Some editing is often acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken.
Absolutely, yes.

But I want to be clear that the ultimate decision was mine. Not because I'm looking for credit for making this happen, because as far as I'm concerned they came to an agreement that I merely facilitated, but because I don't want anyone who thinks this was a terrible decision to put it on the moderators as a group. I asked for feedback, but I didn't seek consensus or put this to a vote. I'm confident that a number of moderators wouldn't have gone for this if it was their decision, but I also didn't get anyone saying this was a decision they couldn't accept, and I don't think anyone's afraid to tell me they think I'm ****ing up if they believe I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
From the lack of discussion here it feels like this thread is where concerns are sent to die.
No, not at all. I saw some opinions had been posted, but didn't get the impression that anyone was necessarily seeking a reply until now.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2017, 09:14 AM   #1317
The Imp
adept
 
The Imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,132
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by R*R View Post
Agree.

One DP/youtube thread is plenty. I closed the latest one that had less than 30 posts and linked to the main thread.
There's 4 Doug Polk threads on the front page just now...

He's not going to stop encouraging people to make threads, it's his whole business plan. Maybe time for "NVG - sponsored by Doug Polk"? At least get something out of it.
The Imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2017, 04:00 PM   #1318
Bobo Fett
2+2 Ad Man
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 45,048
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
There's 4 Doug Polk threads on the front page just now...

He's not going to stop encouraging people to make threads, it's his whole business plan. Maybe time for "NVG - sponsored by Doug Polk"? At least get something out of it.
I don't think that really tells the full story. Two of those threads are HTK/Polk threads; one has basically been an HTK containment thread for quite some time now, and the other is barely active and has dropped off the first page again (likely since you posted). I could see making an argument for locking that one.

The PokerNews thread was actually deleted originally, and Mason decided to restore it. The OP of that one was clearly looking to make Polk look bad - of course since then, I see it's become something of a Polk cheerleading thread.

So yeah, there's a fair bit of Polkage on the front page, but I don't think it's quite the problem you're making it out to be.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2017, 10:27 PM   #1319
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
... and the other is barely active and has dropped off the first page again (likely since you posted). I could see making an argument for locking that one.
Good point.

I have locked it as it is essentially a second yet less relevant HTK/Polk thread.
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2017, 02:11 PM   #1320
OnMyBike
adept
 
OnMyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere cool
Posts: 743
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

@Bobo thanks for the thoughtful reply, I appreciate you sharing your rationale. While I don't completely agree on all points, it's clear there's no perfect solution and you've tried to find a good balance.
OnMyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 07:05 PM   #1321
Grindmentality
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 38
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by R*R View Post
Sounds good! Beers with Yayo on the jukebox.
I was directed here for my explanation of Zima getting his account back but nothing was really explained. Many others have paid back debts, much more timely I might add, and ever had their account back. But you allow a person that exploited his position on your forum to try and scam someone out of a large amount of money after trying to freeroll the whole thing thinking he's got a degen to exploit. Journalistic integrity must mean nothing here as you helped in editing the thread to help Zima avoid legal issues. Now you're allowing access to players and essentially millions of dollar again.

So if he scams a single cent off another person will 2p2 be footing the bill?
Grindmentality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 08:43 PM   #1322
gregorio
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 27,291
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

I believe the reason he's not banned is because the scamming didn't happen on 2p2 or involve his account here, and 2p2 doesn't take action against people for things that happen outside of 2p2.
gregorio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 12:16 AM   #1323
R*R
Painting It Black
 
R*R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,301
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
I was directed here for my explanation of Zima getting his account back but nothing was really explained. Many others have paid back debts, much more timely I might add, and ever had their account back. But you allow a person that exploited his position on your forum to try and scam someone out of a large amount of money after trying to freeroll the whole thing thinking he's got a degen to exploit. Journalistic integrity must mean nothing here as you helped in editing the thread to help Zima avoid legal issues. Now you're allowing access to players and essentially millions of dollar again.

So if he scams a single cent off another person will 2p2 be footing the bill?
Did you read post #1316. That would be a good start.

Also it is clear in that post that I had very little to do with the resolution of this situation.

Bobo Fett took on the difficult this task of resolving this situation and I, like several Mods and members, think he did an excellent job in getting it resolved. I can't speak for Bobo Fett but I am guessing he will likely address your concerns. But yeah, read post #1316,
R*R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 01:48 AM   #1324
Grindmentality
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 38
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by R*R View Post
Did you read post #1316. That would be a good start.

Also it is clear in that post that I had very little to do with the resolution of this situation.

Bobo Fett took on the difficult this task of resolving this situation and I, like several Mods and members, think he did an excellent job in getting it resolved. I can't speak for Bobo Fett but I am guessing he will likely address your concerns. But yeah, read post #1316,
Yes, yes I did read #1316, multiple times in fact because I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Zima's repuatation, why is that the concern of 2p2? It's the community's job to form their own opinions based on the information presented. You're forcing the edited version onto the public when ALL of the evidence should be presented just like in every other case of scamming.

The creator of post can edit it as they see fit. Although none of us are mods on this site it's our intellectual property that we post. If I make a thread about an issue and I feel it's been resolved and choose to delete the post, that was my decision to make your OPINION of that has no place. Saying that people would be worried about exposing a scammer in fear of not getting paid has been a constant since forums existed, but now all the sudden it's a big issue and trumps outing a scammer?

You're interjecting your opinion onto the matter of what should and should not be shown. This is a clear abuse of power and again you're forcing your approved version onto everyone. Why shouldn't anyone in the future looking for information about this not be afforded all the information provided and make their own assumptions? Because all the information and lack of posts by Zima making him look like a total scumbag and scammer?

Zima's lack of response is a clear indicator of guilt and should be represented the way it was posted. Again you're showing favoritism to Zima and you're really just not even trying to hide it.

Stop the excuses of why you aren't allowing all the information to be shown. "The usual 2p2 banter," also includes a lot of well paid points that everyone should be privy to without your censoring.

"Zima's best interest" How does this apply to the rest of the community? You allowed him to use your forum as leveraging point to pay less than he owed. You facilitating the process makes you an accessory in helping Zima essentially blackmail his way out of paying the total sum owed.

So yeah, I read it and it makes no sense. For years he's been on here as a trusted member allowed to judge other people in the scamming thread and determine their guilt. You then not only allowed but facilitated the process of him dictating the terms of payment and management of the thread against the person he scammed to weasel out of paying the full amount.

The community should be outraged but the censorship and abuse of power in this whole thing. From Zima to the mods you all should be ashamed of yourselves, where is the integrity here?

Facts:

Zima is a scammer, scumbag and borderline blackmailing POS.

The mods here allowed him to use his ability to edit a thread as a leveraging point in a negotiation in which you all let him dictate terms that were in his best interest and not in Marc's.

Bobo's censored a thread dramatically to help Zima out with legal issues.

Bobo's opinion is NOT that of the community as a whole.

2p2 is not allowing us as the community to draw our own conclusions of the situation which is the very foundation of which these forums are based.

So please, tell me again how if this wasn't Zima the situation would have gone differently?
Grindmentality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 03:09 AM   #1325
Bobo Fett
2+2 Ad Man
 
Bobo Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 45,048
Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
I was directed here for my explanation of Zima getting his account back but nothing was really explained.
He didn't get his account back - it was never taken away. What did happen is that he had his Marketplace Approval removed and wasn't allowed to use the P2P transfer threads, and that's still the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Many others have paid back debts, much more timely I might add, and ever had their account back.
I assume you mean "never had their account back", and if so, I would imagine that's happened in some cases, just like there are other cases where people have scammed, repaid, and either kept or recovered their account. There is no black-and-white policy here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
But you allow a person that exploited his position on your forum to try and scam someone out of a large amount of money after trying to freeroll the whole thing thinking he's got a degen to exploit.
Not really understanding any of this. The scam had already happened, then months later the OP started a thread here to try and recover his money, and it worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Journalistic integrity must mean nothing here as you helped in editing the thread to help Zima avoid legal issues.
We aren't journalists. And the editing of the thread was something that the OP and Zima agreed on, and then I agreed to do (with some modifications to their agreement).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Now you're allowing access to players and essentially millions of dollar again.
No, we're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
So if he scams a single cent off another person will 2p2 be footing the bill?
Not sure if this is a serious question, so I'll just give you the simple answer - no, of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Yes, yes I did read #1316, multiple times in fact because I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
Which sort of makes me question your ability to see this objectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Zima's repuatation, why is that the concern of 2p2?
It's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
It's the community's job to form their own opinions based on the information presented. You're forcing the edited version onto the public when ALL of the evidence should be presented just like in every other case of scamming.
Except, that's not what happens in "every other case of scamming". There have been many, many times that posts about scams have been edited or deleted once the issue has been resolved. This is just the first time it's been so high profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
The creator of post can edit it as they see fit.
Actually, they can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Although none of us are mods on this site it's our intellectual property that we post. If I make a thread about an issue and I feel it's been resolved and choose to delete the post, that was my decision to make your OPINION of that has no place.
You may feel that way, but that's not the way it works. First off, we have the right to remove any content as we see fit. And secondly, you don't get to edit or delete any of your posts as you like.

Now of course that doesn't mean that we go around deleting posts just because we feel like it, or deny everyone's requests to edit or delete their posts. I believe we have an obligation to act responsibly in this regard. Sometimes this leads to tough calls, and not everyone's going to agree with our decisions. That's fine. We do our best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Saying that people would be worried about exposing a scammer in fear of not getting paid has been a constant since forums existed, but now all the sudden it's a big issue and trumps outing a scammer?
It's absolute, and false, statements like this that aren't going to help move this conversation forward. In this case, it didn't "trump outing a scammer" - he's still outed. It trumped outing him in the manner you'd like to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
You're interjecting your opinion onto the matter of what should and should not be shown. This is a clear abuse of power and again you're forcing your approved version onto everyone.
And this isn't especially helpful either. No, it's not "abuse of power". Abuse of power implies that the person is doing so in a way that benefits them. Just because I've made a decision you don't agree with doesn't mean I've abused my power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Why shouldn't anyone in the future looking for information about this not be afforded all the information provided and make their own assumptions?
A decision was made that the agreement OP and Zima reached, with some modifications I requested, was a fair compromise that kept the most information in regards to the scam and allowed them to move forward with repayment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Because all the information and lack of posts by Zima making him look like a total scumbag and scammer?
I imagine that played into the agreement they came up with, yes. But there's still plenty of info there that makes him look like that; in fact, far more than what was deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Zima's lack of response is a clear indicator of guilt and should be represented the way it was posted. Again you're showing favoritism to Zima and you're really just not even trying to hide it.
This is what I said about it:

"Admittedly this is one piece that was lost - the fact that Zima never responded in the thread. I don't think it's a *huge* deal, but I understand that some people would feel differently, and if I went back and did it again perhaps I'd make sure it was mentioned in the summary."

So no, it wasn't favoritism - it was something of an oversight on my part.

That said, we certainly don't need it as a "clear indicator of guilt". The issue at hand was whether Zima owed him money - given that they came to a resolution and Zima paid him, obviously he was guilty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Stop the excuses of why you aren't allowing all the information to be shown. "The usual 2p2 banter," also includes a lot of well paid points that everyone should be privy to without your censoring.
What excuses? I've been very clear about this from the beginning. Here's the full passage that you're quoting from:

"Fair enough. Most of it was the usual NVG banter, but of course hearing a lot of opinions and from people that may know one party or the other, or have a unique perspective, has some value. Even if there wasn't any new allegations posted (and I don't believe there was), there's no question that page after page of people coming down on the group wasn't good for them, and removing it was."

So yeah, I agree that there was some value in the material that was deleted, so I'm not sure why you're portraying this as if I'm denying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
"Zima's best interest" How does this apply to the rest of the community?
In this case, it applies because the OP and Zima came to an agreement, which of course entailed both of them arguing for things that were in their best interests. That's usually the way it works when you negotiate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
You allowed him to use your forum as leveraging point to pay less than he owed. You facilitating the process makes you an accessory in helping Zima essentially blackmail his way out of paying the total sum owed.
My understanding is that they came to an agreement that Zima would pay the full amount over time, or a slightly lesser amount immediately, and the OP agreed to the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
So yeah, I read it and it makes no sense. For years he's been on here as a trusted member allowed to judge other people in the scamming thread and determine their guilt. You then not only allowed but facilitated the process of him dictating the terms of payment and management of the thread against the person he scammed to weasel out of paying the full amount.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
The community should be outraged but the censorship and abuse of power in this whole thing.
And yet...they aren't. Does that tell you anything? Is there maybe the slightest chance you're overreacting just a teensy bit?

I'm not kidding myself that everyone agrees with this compromise, and I'm sure some strongly disagree. But I think most people can at least understand why I came to this decision, even if they don't like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
From Zima to the mods you all should be ashamed of yourselves, where is the integrity here?
Awesome. So because I've made a decision that you don't agree with, I should be ashamed with myself, and you've put me in the same category as Zima. Yeah, that makes sense.

As for the other mods, they have nothing to do with it.

Not feeling even slightly ashamed of the amount of time I voluntarily spend on these forums trying to prevent scamming and help people recover their money, sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Facts:

Zima is a scammer, scumbag and borderline blackmailing POS.
OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
The mods here allowed him to use his ability to edit a thread as a leveraging point in a negotiation in which you all let him dictate terms that were in his best interest and not in Marc's.
No, not "the mods". Bobo. And if you want to come to that conclusion with the facts you have at hand, I suppose that's up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Bobo's censored a thread dramatically to help Zima out with legal issues.
Pretty much anything that could have caused any legal issues was in the OP, and I believe you said earlier that it's a poster's right to edit/delete what they wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
Bobo's opinion is NOT that of the community as a whole.
LDO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
2p2 is not allowing us as the community to draw our own conclusions of the situation which is the very foundation of which these forums are based.
OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindmentality View Post
So please, tell me again how if this wasn't Zima the situation would have gone differently?
I imagine that we wouldn't have this lengthy post from you if it wasn't Zima. Outside of that, I don't know what it being Zima has to do with anything. What is it you're suggesting? How are you proposing that it being Zima as opposed to Joe Nobody or Phil Ivey changed anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
I believe the reason he's not banned is because the scamming didn't happen on 2p2 or involve his account here, and 2p2 doesn't take action against people for things that happen outside of 2p2.
Yeah, this would have something to do with it. There may have been times that we've banned someone for a scam that was perpetrated elsewhere, but I can't think of one where someone had scammed somewhere else, resolved it, and they were banned here as a result. Not allowed transactions here? Sure. Banned? Doesn't seem likely.
Bobo Fett is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online