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Old 07-31-2010, 10:56 AM   #226
Redux
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

DN ITT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
One more thing: many of the strategies that players are using today are things I was doing 10 years ago and I was the ONLY one doing it then. I got mocked back then for my approach to the game and now that the game has evolved many of those differences in the way I played became the norm. A simple example: preflop raise sizing in tournaments. Back then people came in for a MIN of 3x and often as much as 5x. I was coming in for 2.5x and everyone told me that had to be wrong because I priced in the big blind. My response, "So what. You think it's a bad thing to play a pot heads up in position against a guy defending too often?" No one understood it. Today, most all of you guys do and then some.
This is awesome. I'm a bit sceptical with regards to you being the ONLY one, though. How about the other elite tournament players (who are big names to date), say Ivey, Hellmuth, Doyle, (Ungar,) what kind of preflop play did they go with back then? Just interested in the evolution of tournament poker in this regard.

Anyway keep it rockin' Daniel!
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:19 AM   #227
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Gotta say I used to hate DN but in recent months it's clear he's gotten a lot better at NL and is more a lot more humble than I thought and open-minded. Now just stop talking during other peoples hands! Oh and btw, I recommend never talking in a hand because you give off a lot and you should balance your timing more (assuming the timing they show on tv is approx right).
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:26 AM   #228
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Respect DN
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:28 AM   #229
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK87 View Post
Oh and btw, I recommend never talking in a hand because you give off a lot and you should balance your timing more (assuming the timing they show on tv is approx right).
lol expert itt
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:38 AM   #230
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Negreanu I am a online grinder and I really respect you for putting your pride and everything aside and working on your game. I know most pros probably aren't able to do this because they've won millions from what they've been doing for 20 some years and so in their minds their style "works". You were able to say forget all that, and reevaluated your game. You have earned my respect - keep it up and GL.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:48 AM   #231
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

I find it odd that people are so obsessed with the cash game results of DN, when he's largely a tourney player these days, or so it seems, and he basically admits he's paying for lessons.

If they were to play mixed games I'm sure that half of the nlhe sharks would suddenly become the fish, anyway.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:16 PM   #232
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDCMO_MONEY View Post
Much love for you Daniel. You are a class act and a stand up guy that is great for the game. Nice that you take sometime to respond and such.
^^ + 1 zillion

I think it's very unusual that a high profile player like DN takes his time to post at 2+2 voluntarily even if some make fun of him. Thanks a lot, great to have you here.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:18 PM   #233
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
This is the exact argument I made when people said I should play 5-10 and learn at those limits, but I explained that I don't want to learn how to be a 5-10 grinder, and I can afford to play against the best players. I felt like, sure, I can learn in a 5-10 game and did spend a bit of time in it, but ultimately I felt my learning curve would be much faster against the best players and I think I'm right about that.

I've gotten a lot better and I know it. The game seems easier to me now in the sense that I'm in less spots where I think, "I don't really know how to play the Kh 8h in this spot." I have a better understanding for the correct lines to take and also consider what my range looks like, etc. Stuff I never used to have to do when I started playing.

I love the "New NLH" and find it way more fascinating than old school poker, but what you should all realize is that my approach to the game in, say, 2004 was just SOOO much better than the average player that I had no use, or no need to ever be concerned with anything other than this:

Make small raises
Play lots of pots
Fold to re-raises
Don't go all in without the nuts
Never bluff on the turn or river

Laugh all you want, but in 2004 I did just that and had a pretty big freaking year. Players got better. They all start making smaller raises, and bluffing less in big pots and paying off in big pots. That system to this day is STILL idea in most tournaments, in most situations. It's far too exploitable against top competition though.

Back then I could essentially play the tourneys in my sleep. Steal, steal, steal blinds and if anyone played back I let them have it unless I had the nuts. So freaking easy. Then when I'd call a raise with a 4h 5h if I hit it in anyway I got paid maximum. It was a totally different game and I truly got a bit bored of it. I know, sounds pompous to say that, but it's true. It was too freaking easy!

Well those days are over and I'm really enjoying the game again and I'm being challenged by it and want to excel at it and I feel like I've come a looong way in a very short period of time.
Sounds like 2004 poker is about where live poker (at least up to 5/10) is right now.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:34 PM   #234
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Yeah tbh, in most live tournaments you can still play like you did in 2004/2005 and be successful.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:56 PM   #235
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
This is the exact argument I made when people said I should play 5-10 and learn at those limits, but I explained that I don't want to learn how to be a 5-10 grinder, and I can afford to play against the best players. I felt like, sure, I can learn in a 5-10 game and did spend a bit of time in it, but ultimately I felt my learning curve would be much faster against the best players and I think I'm right about that.

I've gotten a lot better and I know it. The game seems easier to me now in the sense that I'm in less spots where I think, "I don't really know how to play the Kh 8h in this spot." I have a better understanding for the correct lines to take and also consider what my range looks like, etc. Stuff I never used to have to do when I started playing.

I love the "New NLH" and find it way more fascinating than old school poker, but what you should all realize is that my approach to the game in, say, 2004 was just SOOO much better than the average player that I had no use, or no need to ever be concerned with anything other than this:

Make small raises
Play lots of pots
Fold to re-raises
Don't go all in without the nuts
Never bluff on the turn or river

Laugh all you want, but in 2004 I did just that and had a pretty big freaking year. Players got better. They all start making smaller raises, and bluffing less in big pots and paying off in big pots. That system to this day is STILL idea in most tournaments, in most situations. It's far too exploitable against top competition though.

Back then I could essentially play the tourneys in my sleep. Steal, steal, steal blinds and if anyone played back I let them have it unless I had the nuts. So freaking easy. Then when I'd call a raise with a 4h 5h if I hit it in anyway I got paid maximum. It was a totally different game and I truly got a bit bored of it. I know, sounds pompous to say that, but it's true. It was too freaking easy!

Well those days are over and I'm really enjoying the game again and I'm being challenged by it and want to excel at it and I feel like I've come a looong way in a very short period of time.
Respect.

Honestly, that guy you responded to who talked about 50nl regs or whatever wasn't worth it. You clearly have an awesome attitude and STILL wanna learn better poker after all these years. That is straight up awesome, don't listen to the haters.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:09 PM   #236
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Negreanu: Like any hobby, sport or game, when starting off, you revere and emulate your teachers and the known greats. As time progresses, the list of these often tapers down to the ones you identify with and respect the most. For the game of poker, you are it! Class act and have held my greatest respects since I started playing. A big **** you to all the people who disagree!
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:29 PM   #237
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Make high stakes poker 6max next year!
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:51 PM   #238
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
One more thing: many of the strategies that players are using today are things I was doing 10 years ago and I was the ONLY one doing it then. I got mocked back then for my approach to the game and now that the game has evolved many of those differences in the way I played became the norm. A simple example: preflop raise sizing in tournaments. Back then people came in for a MIN of 3x and often as much as 5x. I was coming in for 2.5x and everyone told me that had to be wrong because I priced in the big blind. My response, "So what. You think it's a bad thing to play a pot heads up in position against a guy defending too often?" No one understood it. Today, most all of you guys do and then some.
This may be true in the specfic case of DN. However, how many times have we heard other live pros say the same. Hellmuth , Matusow, Doyle etc all say they used to play like the current top young guys in some way or another. And yet the thought process behind the current players is probably more complex than it was for the older guys back in the days.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:02 PM   #239
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

I really respect you Daniel.
Been a 'fan' of you since I started out playing poker, no asslicking intended.

GL.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:04 PM   #240
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Guevara View Post
This may be true in the specfic case of DN. However, how many times have we heard other live pros say the same. Hellmuth , Matusow, Doyle etc all say they used to play like the current top young guys in some way or another. And yet the thought process behind the current players is probably more complex than it was for the older guys back in the days.
Of course the thought process of todays players is more complex than years before. That's what evolution is. No one is arguing that. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:20 PM   #241
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
This is the exact argument I made when people said I should play 5-10 and learn at those limits, but I explained that I don't want to learn how to be a 5-10 grinder, and I can afford to play against the best players. I felt like, sure, I can learn in a 5-10 game and did spend a bit of time in it, but ultimately I felt my learning curve would be much faster against the best players and I think I'm right about that.

I've gotten a lot better and I know it. The game seems easier to me now in the sense that I'm in less spots where I think, "I don't really know how to play the Kh 8h in this spot." I have a better understanding for the correct lines to take and also consider what my range looks like, etc. Stuff I never used to have to do when I started playing.

I love the "New NLH" and find it way more fascinating than old school poker, but what you should all realize is that my approach to the game in, say, 2004 was just SOOO much better than the average player that I had no use, or no need to ever be concerned with anything other than this:

Make small raises
Play lots of pots
Fold to re-raises
Don't go all in without the nuts
Never bluff on the turn or river

Laugh all you want, but in 2004 I did just that and had a pretty big freaking year. Players got better. They all start making smaller raises, and bluffing less in big pots and paying off in big pots. That system to this day is STILL idea in most tournaments, in most situations. It's far too exploitable against top competition though.

Back then I could essentially play the tourneys in my sleep. Steal, steal, steal blinds and if anyone played back I let them have it unless I had the nuts. So freaking easy. Then when I'd call a raise with a 4h 5h if I hit it in anyway I got paid maximum. It was a totally different game and I truly got a bit bored of it. I know, sounds pompous to say that, but it's true. It was too freaking easy!

Well those days are over and I'm really enjoying the game again and I'm being challenged by it and want to excel at it and I feel like I've come a looong way in a very short period of time.
When I read this I imagined the tears it brought to some grinder's eyes.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:26 PM   #242
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

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Originally Posted by meoveryouok View Post
the point -------
your head ------
well my point was, poker is not a sport and daniel negreanu isn´t some sort of superstar. he´s basically a nerd himself and he doesn´t seem all that confident. why? because he posts here and constantly feels the need to justify what he does. seems like he´s in desperate need of some sort of approval from nerds. you will never see anything like that from phil ivey or patrik antonius. so yeah, the whole analogy to some nfl star posting in a yankees forum is completely ******ed.

Last edited by tiltnonstop; 07-31-2010 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:31 PM   #243
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

OK, the regs and possibly DN and PS goner hate me for this, but I thought it was common knowledge that on PS: 97 is the computer hand, it used to be Q7 (it is K10 on FT). Of course they may now change it to 93 or 85 or some other random, but then poker is all about adapting or dying. Isn’t it?

I am assuming here that you all know that computers can’t do random (why would the site owners give a hoot about that anyways) and it must also be noted that live can’t do random either, unless the dealer does at least 7 + dovetails (riffles) with a cut each time – insist on it.

A few more days of play left in good ole 97 I hope - i as won loads with it!
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:32 PM   #244
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

It takes alot for any poker player to admit that he is a dog on one table.

for that you get all my respect.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:40 PM   #245
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltnonstop View Post
well my point was, poker is not a sport and daniel negreanu isn´t some sort of superstar. he´s basically a nerd himself and he doesn´t seem all that confident. why? because he posts her and constantly feels the need to justify what he does. seems like he´s in desperate need of some sort of approval from nerds. you will never see anything like that from phil ivey or patrik antonius. so yeah, the whole analogy to some nfl star posting in a yankees forum is completely ******ed.
The fact that poker is not a sport is irrelevant. If you're talking about popularity or Q-rating, he is a superstar. He may not be on the level of Tiger Woods, but he's pretty recognizable.

You say he is desperate for approval and not confident, which I don't believe is true. He has made an honest assessment of his game and realizes the changes he needs to make. Many of the "superstars" aren't able to do that. I'm not sure that the most recognizable player in the game, Phil Hellmuth, has done that to any significant degree.

Again, the analogy of a MLB star (not NFL) posting in a Yankees forum is still a good one.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:50 PM   #246
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

What ever PokerStars are paying you DN, it really aint half enough.
Much Respect sir, you pwned this thread.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:22 PM   #247
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux View Post
DN ITT.

This is awesome. I'm a bit sceptical with regards to you being the ONLY one, though. How about the other elite tournament players (who are big names to date), say Ivey, Hellmuth, Doyle, (Ungar,) what kind of preflop play did they go with back then? Just interested in the evolution of tournament poker in this regard.

Anyway keep it rockin' Daniel!
The only other player who was min-raising back then was O'Neil Longston. Watching him play helped me develop my strategy. Later on Alan Goering was doing it too, but other than that, trust me, no one was coming in for less than 3x. Paul Phillips, not sure if you guys remember him, but he was coming in for a little less that 3x and also Jim Meehan just under 3x.

That's literally it. Everyone else was at least a 3x er
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:23 PM   #248
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

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Originally Posted by revg View Post
Of course the thought process of todays players is more complex than years before. That's what evolution is. No one is arguing that. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
basically what im trying to say is that DN is constantly looking for approval and always seems to try and be part of what he perceives to be the good poker players. hence constantly bashes hellmuth and matusow.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:32 PM   #249
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu View Post
The only other player who was min-raising back then was O'Neil Longston. Watching him play helped me develop my strategy. Later on Alan Goering was doing it too, but other than that, trust me, no one was coming in for less than 3x. Paul Phillips, not sure if you guys remember him, but he was coming in for a little less that 3x and also Jim Meehan just under 3x.

That's literally it. Everyone else was at least a 3x er
Maybe I'm a fish, but I fail to see how raising 2.5bb vs 3bb preflop is a revolutionary development in the history of tournament poker. How is this going to effect results in any significant way?

Also, I'm somewhat skeptical that this simple strategy:
Quote:
Make small raises
Play lots of pots
Fold to re-raises
Don't go all in without the nuts
Never bluff on the turn or river
was the secret to your success even back in '04. Isn't your live reading ability, rather than any technical genius at NLHE, the skill that really sets you apart from the fields?
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:37 PM   #250
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Re: nutsinho tells kidpoker he still hasn't learned how to play poker

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Originally Posted by mistergrinch View Post
Maybe I'm a fish, but I fail to see how raising 2.5bb vs 3bb preflop is a revolutionary development in the history of tournament poker. How is this going to effect results in any significant way?
3bb raise preflop in midgame and endgame of tournaments is considered a pretty huge leak nowadays
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