Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
The problem is, I don't see a concrete correlation between these 2 reasons to bet, and the fact that we should bet a certain hand.
1. 72o satisfies both reasons to bet, but we shouldn't bet with it
Isn't this an explicit example from the book when teaching this concept? Maybe I chose 74o or something, but I thought I mentioned this specifically.
The fact of the matter is when 3-betting pre-flop, every hand denies equity pretty well and makes the pot bigger in case it wins pretty well. This is why even top notch players from 10 years ago had huge leaks in their pre-flop game relative to today despite pre-flop being such an "easy" street. It was much harder to "figure pre-flop out" than many people realize, largely for the reason that
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
2. Betting with Ts9s on QsJsJc8s may be good, even if we don't need to deny equity
Yup, so this is a bet despite not denying equity, because betting is really, really good at making the pot bigger in case we win and checking back in position here would probably be a pretty bad play. So even if it only accomplishes one objective (make pot bigger in case we win), it's still a bet. Just like how we bet our very strong hands on the river despite them denying no equity.
But why isn't KK always a bet on a KK2 flop? Well, now it isn't very good at accomlishing either objective. It's the nuts so it denies no equity, and due to it's removal effect it's hard to get called. Your Ts9s example didn't have that problem, as it excelled so much at one of the reasons to bet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
3. Betting with zero-equity hand in certain spot can be good, even if we almost never win the pot when called, so making the pot bigger is irrelevant
Right, because if a hand has 0% equity, then while it doesn't "make the pot bigger in case we win" it's an absolute beast at denying equity. In other words whenever I bet a hand with 0% equity and I make my opponent fold, I made him fold a hand with 100% equity.
This is exactly how river bluffs work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
4. Some bluffs on the river are good, even if they do not satisfy any of the 2 reasons for betting
I'll assume you mean river "bet" rather than river "bluff," since by definition a river bluff can deny equity.
Show me a river bet that's good on the river that neither denies equity nor makes the pot bigger in case it wins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
So how exactly do I use these 2 reasons to bet to help my thought process when I decide whether certain hand is a good bet or not?
They aren't a binary thing. A hand doesn't either deny equity or it doesn't on the flop, some hands deny equity better than others. Betting KK on a A99 flop might deny equity, but it doesn't deny very much of it.
But either way, I think the best thing to do now is for you to show a river bet that neither denies equity nor makes the pot bigger in case it wins that is a good bet. I don't think this exist so maybe that will get us closer to seeing eye to eye on this concept.
Last edited by Matthew Janda; 06-28-2017 at 02:43 PM.
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