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The Next Rounders??? The Next Rounders???

09-19-2021 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly
Rotten Tomatoes audience score 46%, a far cry from the “critics” 86%. I trust the People! They’ve cast their “it sucks” judgement, and is probably way closer to the truth than the fruity critic crowd.
The nature of RT's scoring system makes things tricky. It's all binary: "fresh" vs. "rotten." However, when determining where a critic's opinion lies, a mixed review can end up as a fresh. Or a review that doesn't attempt to rate a film can get construed one way or another. But fans are asked to give it a 1-4 star rating. Two stars will be rotten.

For example, this review (more of a critique or analysis) rates as a Fresh on their meter: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/th...can-corruption.

That article doesn't really recommend it, nor does it warn fans against it. Simply not the purpose. It's more of a "this is what the film attempts to do" sort of writeup. It somehow qualifies as a positive review on RT, but I could see Brody's take turning as many viewers away as it does piquing interest.
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09-20-2021 , 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
How much poker is actually in it?

Based on Stapes' description on his Poker In The Ears podcast, the movie depicts only one actual hand. But the whole project is obviously poker-related enough to warrant getting Schrader on an upcoming episode. Of course, it must have enough poker that they would hire Stapes as a poker consultant. And yet there has been quite a bit of messaging from both Schrader and Stapes that it's "not a poker movie," such as the quoted Tweet above.

Sight still unseen, I'm starting to wonder if poker is little more than the backdrop to a story, similar to the way an Angels baseball game is the setting to the third act of The Naked Gun. ZAZ also hired a baseball consultant (Jay Johnstone, who cameos as one of the opposing players) to get the look and atmosphere correct. But no one should consider that movie a "baseball movie."
One full hand may be correct in terms of actually seeing the cards and action. He plays quite a bit of poker in the movie and goes to numerous tournaments, but it's basically a backdrop to the real story, which is not about poker.
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09-21-2021 , 03:22 AM
I saw it, and it's definitely not a poker movie. There is one actual hand of poker where we see hole cards and four streets of action. There's a scene in which the main character describes the most memorable hand of poker he's ever witnessed, but he describes it in a way that it's more a card trick than a poker story. There are many scenes of tournament poker shown from a distance. Sometimes we see the main character (Oscar Isaac) tanking briefly before making a river call, turning over some meaningless hand, and getting pushed the pot—but we don't see his opponent or the community cards or know what the previous action was. There's some explanation of how backing works, just as there's some explanation of how card counting works in blackjack. There are many scenes inside casinos—people walking past slot machines or having a conversation in a casino bar or lounge. But all of this is just the backdrop.

This is a PTSD movie. This is a torture movie. This is an Abu Ghraib movie. This is a prison movie. This is a movie about lost souls, loneliness, desolation, forgiveness, revenge. This is not a poker movie or a blackjack movie.

It's a thematically dark arthouse film, with nowhere near the mainstream appeal of Rounders. The dialogue is often very, very slow. If you didn't like the trailer or other clips you've seen, you definitely won't like the full movie.
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09-28-2021 , 07:13 PM
Just saw it and it was terrible. The acting by Tiffany Haddish was so bad it almost made it unwatchable. The casting director should be banned from ever working on a movie again.
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09-30-2021 , 11:10 AM
I just watched The Card Counter. Bad movie. I thought the acting was mostly ok, but badly hamstrung by the terrible script. Haddish was not great, but it looked to me like she could have been coached up and just wasn't.

The poorly explained world of the circuit grinder was unnecessarily glossed over in an unnecessarily bad way, and the one hand of poker that was looked at in any sort of detail was completely ridiculous. It's hard to imagine that Stapes had anything to do with that.

Plot development was weirdly paced and uninteresting, and the dialog was mostly terrible. It's so bad that I have a hard time believing that Paul Shrader actually wrote it. It felt like a film student was tryin to channel the Taxi Driver Shrader, and not coming close. In general the whole thing feels mailed in.

If you must watch this movie, don't spend any money to do so.
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10-02-2021 , 04:29 PM
Just watched the trailer. In disbelief that is a real movie. Tiffany Haddish is such a curious choice.

Oh Jesus, according to Google, the main character is named William Tell. Come on.

87% rottentomatoes. Come the **** on!
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10-03-2021 , 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen
.

This is a PTSD movie. This is a torture movie. This is an Abu Ghraib movie. This is a prison movie. This is a movie about lost souls, loneliness, desolation, forgiveness, revenge. This is not a poker movie or a blackjack movie.
Great review! Feels like the most accurate depiction
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10-03-2021 , 02:21 PM
so less poker than James Bond Casino Royale?
that and Norman Chad's review make me want to wait until streaming.

still waiting for 'No Time to Die' and 'Dune' to see on big screen
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10-05-2021 , 09:01 AM
They could have made two really good movies. One about a card counter/poker player/ex con trying to stay under the radar by winning just enough to get by. And another one about a guy trying to make sense of his role in some horrible acts when he was young who meets someone affected by the same events in a different way.

Instead, they removed all the interesting parts of both movies and cobbled together the rest with a bunch of boring exposition.

I can imagine the director saying over and over again "Ok Oscar - let's try it again, but this time more wooden. Go!"
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10-11-2021 , 11:02 AM
It was dull and the acting was wooden. The plot was not realistic. There was some blackjack and more poker, but the Schrader quote above about the movie not really being about poker is accurate.

Don't pay any money to see this. Wait until is on Netflix or HBO.
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10-11-2021 , 02:02 PM
ITT we see people inexplicably proclaim a movie as the next Rounders based on the word of an anonymous poster, then proceed to not only be disappointed that the movie isn't what they wrongly proclaim, but judge it on the basis of the erroneous proclamation.
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10-11-2021 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leviathan74
ITT we see people inexplicably proclaim a movie as the next Rounders based on the word of an anonymous poster, then proceed to not only be disappointed that the movie isn't what they wrongly proclaim, but judge it on the basis of the erroneous proclamation.
I think people are judging it a POS on its own merits.
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10-11-2021 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly
I think people are judging it a POS on its own merits.
I don't know if it's a good movie or not.

But just the way my operating assumption if I visit a movies forum is that it consists of poker fish, my operating assumption when visiting a poker forum is that it consists of movie fish.
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12-22-2021 , 10:23 PM
Finally out on DVD. Yea, this is not the next Rounders. lol

It was fairly entertaining, but anything to do with gambling/poker was stupid. I love when they were HU at final table and both had the biggest mounds of chips ever and the action was All In and snap call. lol

F the way it ended.
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12-23-2021 , 06:50 AM
People thought I was serious when I said this was the next Rounders? lol

It was obvious from the trailer, this movie was going to be garbage.

So I guess in that regard, it was the next Rounders.
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06-12-2022 , 10:48 AM
This is on HBO Max now. It is the weirdest poker related movie I have ever seen. 6.3 on IMDB and 87% on RT.
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06-12-2022 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71
This is on HBO Max now. It is the weirdest poker related movie I have ever seen. 6.3 on IMDB and 87% on RT.
ty fozzy. idk what I would've done if not for you.
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06-14-2022 , 12:13 AM
the next Rounders will have Matt damon trying to sell worthless crypto so he can buy into WSOP
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06-14-2022 , 02:49 AM
I hated this movie. You call it The Card Counter when it had almost nothing to do with card counting. Why not call it The Tournament Player. There was no mistaking The Taxi Driver. That is what Travis Bickle did. What was Travis doing at the end of the movie after he rescued Iris and recovered from injuries. He was back driving a cab when he picked up Betsy. That is not how it ended for William Tell. You expected The Card Counter to be one movie and then it turned out to be something completely different. How was William Tell being an AP even relevant to the plot. He could have just as well been anything where you accumulate a large sum of money anonymously. Actually you aren't anonymous at all if make final tables at poker tournaments.

The movie does feature Captain Tom Franklin who was a consultant and is at one of the final tables.

Last edited by News777; 06-14-2022 at 02:55 AM.
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06-19-2022 , 04:10 AM
Okay, finally getting around to watch this movie now that it's constantly pushed in my face on HBO Max.

For some grins, I'll do it Cinema Sins style, which means there will be plenty of spoilers (duh). It also means what is tucked behind the spoiler button is LONG.

The time stamps will also vary from, say, a Bluray version because mine had a 30-second promo spot at the top. And if you think I'm being nitpicky, well, clearly you’ve never seen Cinema Sins. (Also, if you've never seen a Cinema Sins video, you won't recognize a few of the references, like the Pronoun Game and the overall disdain for narration.)

Spoiler:

1:24-2:32 The 1990s called, they want their long, boring credit sequence back. At least in a movie like City Slickers, the opening credits had a little cartoon to watch. This is just a tight shot of felt. And sure, the key for such a sequence is to establish the setting for the movie we're about to see, like an overture. But we already know this film is called The Card Counter. Showing 68 seconds of green felt is completely unnecessary.

2:38 I’m not saying all $25 chips have to be green, but a red $25 chip would be a massive mindf**k for even casual casino visitors. I blame the dealer union, who probably hoped enough suckers would instinctively fire in what they think is a $5 tip, forgetting that they're sliding over five times that.

2:48 Oscar-ration!

Also, in this opening blackjack hand, we see the Q, J, 8, 9, 6, K, 5, J, 6 of spades, with the 6 being the dealer up card. No other suits show up. I know in a truly random shuffle, this is theoretically possible, but if I’m sitting at that table, I’d have to look around to make sure I’m not at Prime Social in Texas with a shady Deckmate2 underneath the table.

Also, also… we are people signaling hit or stand before the dealer has revealed his up card?

4:54 Settle in for a tutorial on card counting. If William truly learned to count cards in prison, you’d think he would have graduated from the basic high-low system to something more sophisticated. Then again, I’m not sure most audience members could sit through a voice-over explanation of the Uston Advanced Count or the Wong Halves System. So while I understand the need to keep this simple, it’s still a sin.

5:31 “For example, if the running count is +9 and there are four and a half decks remaining, nine over 4 1/2 gives you a true count is +2.” While this is factually accurate, how practical is it to estimate fractions of a deck? I’m not saying nobody does this, but the people who do also have moved on from the High-Low system.

8:36 Granted, I have no experience at a “Super 6” type of joint,, but most hotels/motels I’ve been to won’t allow guests to pull the art off the walls.

10:00 I get it, this whole routine with covering all furniture with sheets establishes the character, even though it's not explained at any point. But what strikes me is how each piece of set dressing in this scene appears to be wrapped in a sheet of the perfect size. So does William travel around with sheets of varying sizes and shapes to cover all situations? Or does he cut up large sheets into smaller sheets as necessary, then eventually restocks with full-size sheets? And what if he ends up at a fancy hotel with more furnishings than he has sheets?

Also, if he also feels compelled to wrap the table lamps in sheets, should he also want to cover up the ceiling lamp above the counter? How is that any different?

10:28 Convenient timing of the cheering player just as William passes is convenient.

Also, we know Martin Scorcese didn’t direct this, Paul Schrader did. But even Paul Schrader would find a better actor than that cheering player.

10:50 Considering the mentions of "crafty Asian gamblers" and a high-stakes pai gow room, there aren’t many Asians in the scene. Granted, they could all be in that pai gow room. But the types of places that would even have low-stakes pai gow are generally filled to the brim with Asians. When I go to Bay 101, it looks like a family reunion.

11:40 Slippery Joe’s reaction to William’s “it’s indigenous” is so delayed and so stilted, that I have to think Bobby King assumed the reaction would be fixed in the edit. As it should have been.

11:55 Sure, the WSOP Circuit hits some relatively small establishments, like the Deerfoot Inn and Harrah’s Cherokee. But based on the establishing shot of the Washa at the beginning of this sequence, having a WSOPC event at a place like this would be like having WPT Colusa. From what we see, the Heartland Poker Tour wouldn’t even go to Washa.

12:16 Joe Stapleton cameo. One sin deducted!

Funny hearing “USA! USA!” chants at a WSOPC event. Go look at the results of any Circuit tourney on Hendon Mob, and count how many American flags there are. And sure, the irony is that the character is not American, but Ukrainian. To me, it's like cheering "Go Aggies" at a Texas A&M vs. Utah State basketball game.

12:43 Looking for a game with a bunch of law enforcement officers? No wonder NVG asked if this could be the next Rounders.

14:15 La Linda orders a Tom Collins with Tanqueray. But she clearly pronounces it with a ‘G,” like the word is spelled “Tangueray.” I’m charging one sin for the obvious product placement, one sin for Haddish's mispronunciation, and one sin for the fact that she didn’t just order a “Tanqueray Tom Collins." Hearing it said her way is nearly as tilting as when Edward James Olmos says “hamburgers with cheese” in Stand And Deliver.

15:00 We have now known the La Linda character for only a minute, but if Tiffany Haddish’s acting stays this wooden, I fear that William will wrap HER up in sheets and string. We know due to budgetary constraints that Schrader shot many scenes in just one take, but if you’re doing that, maybe get a more experienced actor than Haddish.

15:11 After the whole diatribe about a Tom Collins, La Linda doesn’t actually get a Tom Collins. Has anyone seen that drink? It looks like lemonade. Her drink looks like iced water with garnish at the top.

15:24 William’s explanation of how a backer works is clearly exposition for the audience. There is no reason he would need to mansplain this to La Linda, who is a backer.

Also, William left out two other problems with backers: the shaman and the frog poison.

16:09 In a movie containing poker, I’ve spotted a tell. When Tiffany Haddish actually sips from her drink, she puts the straw up to her tongue. When she’s only pretend drinking, she just puts the straw to her lips.

16:30 Having the empty seats 5 and 6 is clearly to allow the camera a clean shot of La Linda and William. But in reality, you just know the guy in seat 7 would have slid to his right a bit, and the guy in seat 4 would have slid to his left.

22:41 The guard beating the prisoner in Abu Ghraib (and the foley sound going with it) is only slightly less convincing than the boxing in the Rocky movies. But still more believable than Jake Paul’s fights.

Other than that, the use of VR lenses for this scene might be the best-looking shot of a film that has many great-looking shots. Taking five sins off for the work of Alex Dynan, who is by far my MVP.

24:55 William orders a “Johnnie Walker, double, neat.” Black? Red? Gold? Blue? We eventually see that the bartender pours Black. This is an ongoing TV/movie trope that goes back to the people on Cheers frequently ordering “a beer,” without specifying a brand. But I don’t have to like it.

The actor playing the bartender gives an accurate six count for pouring a double, but her technique in holding the bottle suggests she has never done it before. Strange that a technical advisor would get the pour count correct, but so egregiously ignore her technique. This would be like poker consultant Joe Stapleton advising a typical hand of poker, getting the bet and raise sizes accurate, but then not noticing the dealer moving counter clockwise.

26:00 “So what was that about?” “What?” I’m not sure who sins worse in the pronoun game, William or Cirk. William asks the question, but Cirk asks “what” as if there should be any confusion. These two have only met once, and they are clearly convening at this bar to discuss that meeting. Thus, I’m charging two sins.

26:35 I know we’re in a dark room in a dark scene, but Cirk’s drink looks more like coffee than Johnnie Walker Black. Between that and La Linda’s crystal clear Tom Collins, I’m starting to wonder if the prop master is a sworn teetotaler.

26:55 “Is this story going anywhere?” Sure, William asks this to make him sound belligerent or annoyed or both, but this story clearly was going somewhere. This is the dialogue equivalent of the “weak means strong” tells in poker, but a seasoned player like William should know better.

29:44 The police car passes several cars to their right. F**k any driver who doesn’t pull over for a siren or emergency vehicle. And no, that’s not the fault of the movie, that’s a larger societal sin, but a sin nonetheless.

32:39 William tells Cirk to turn off the heavy metal music. How did Cirk get control of the sound system? Is there a terrestrial radio station that plays that kind of music? Or did Cirk pair the car via Bluetooth without William knowing it until then?

Also, if that music is somehow a trigger for William, why does it take so long for William to say something? And if it’s that severe, why does he tell Cirk to turn it off rather than doing it himself? Like the pronoun game exchange six minutes earlier, this movie constantly wants to movie.

33:30 William thinks “who is this insolent little prick” when he learns that Cirk doesn’t want to gamble, doesn’t want to bet on sports, and doesn’t want to spend money in general. But shouldn’t this have come up back when William called Cirk from his motel room? William tells Cirk on that call what he does, that he wants to travel around and hit various card rooms. So Cirk’s distaste for gambling, cards, sports betting, etc., should have come up on that call. But then I guess we would have no second act, and thus, no movie.

Never mind that William would have turned tail the moment he sees Cirk staying in a cluttered hotel room. Unless they’re getting separate rooms, Cirk’s lifestyle will never jibe with William’s compulsion for wrapping up his furniture.

37:33 “Well, that’s a dramatic turn…” La Linda is reading the note Schrader got from Scorcese at this point in the script.

38:40 La Linda suggests the WSOP Circuit for William to build his nest egg, and we saw the WSOP Circuit at that canker sore of a casino early in the movie. Did Caesars, also mentioned as one of the places William and La Linda have met, back this movie? It’s just a lot of mentions of the WSOPC when William could just as easily accomplish his goals by staying in one place and grinding cash games. If he wants to go from city to city, then stick to blackjack and count cards.

39:13 “Alex Carrasco, WSOP champion, you may have heard of him…” William says this as if Cirk, who has already said he has no interest in gambling, might know of some random bracelet winner.

39:50 In hand been QQ and 98dd on a flop of QJTr, William describes the action as “check, raise, reraise, rereraise, call.” The first action after “check” shouldn’t be “raise,’ it should be “bet.” Clearly, Stapes was not on the set that day.

The turn, we learn is a T, giving the 98 a straight flush draw. I know the pot is huge after all of that flop action, and we are told that the QQ guy “did not even have a pot-sized bet left.” But would/could 98dd call a turn shove with that board, given the action seen up to that point? I say no. No sin here because we’ll never know for sure.

40:45 No one will be seated while we watch the server to pour the two men their coffee in a wide three-shot.

41:30 I feel like all of William’s side of the conversation, casting doubt about how Cirk’s plan, comes straight from Scorcese’s notes about the script.

43:20 When describing the conditions of Abu Ghraib – feces, urine, sweat, smoke, etc. – the most vivid part are the sand spiders and camel spiders. I don’t have arachnophobia the way, say, my sister does. But f**k camel spiders. And f**k this scene for making me picture them all over the place.

45:43 I know the whole “Asians look alike” thing is considered racist, but when we first see Minnesota, damn if I didn’t think that was me. Or me in about three years, the way I keep putting on weight.

45:55 “There’s not a lot of fat people who play professional poker.” Are we sure La Linda likes being around the MTT circuit? That might be true overseas, but she clearly stays States-side. Now, I don’t want to name names and bodyshame anyone, but we can all think of a good number of pudgy poker players. The Jason Koons, Alex Foxens and post-2016 Olivier Busquets are absolutely the exception, not the norm. Be honest, this is the REAL reason regs prefer heads-up and six-max over full ring.

“More Chins in a Chinese phone book” is a joke so hacky that a veteran standup like Haddish should have refused to say it. But I’ve also never granted the joke its premise. In a Chinese phone book, the name would be appear in its original characters. And even if you Romanized the character, you would more likely get Chen or Jin or something else. If anything, there are a lot of Chins in an AMERICAN phone book, especially if the book is for a city with a lot of former Chinese immigrants.

Also, sin for phone books.

46:10 The references to The Hustler and The Cincinnati Kid are only reminding us of much better movies about gambling.

46:35 “The prize money is split between the top five players.” Wait, if he talking about this particular tournament? Because the line before it talks about MTTs in general. And this is a tourney with one-hour blind levels, which is not likely to get a field so small that it only has five people who cash.

And yes, I know, the 2018 Big One For One Drop had one-hour blind levels and only paid five people. But does the field in this scene look like it forked over a milly for a buy-in?

46:42 And now we’ll sit through an entire explanation on no limit Texas hold ‘em, including the blinds, the community cards, etc. In other words, an explanation for a relatively small number of people who saw this movie, don’t know anything about NLHE, but suddenly need to learn how it works for a movie whose creators constantly insisted is not about poker.

46:51 The way Minnesota looks at his cards tells me this was another thing Stapes did not advise on. Minneosta is worse than the old lady, who holds her hand up like a pinochle player does. Quite possible that these were shot later as inserts, and that Stapes was not involved in the edit, but still sin-worthy.

47:45 I might be misreading the chip denominations, but I swear William bets t1800 on the flop and gets two callers, then bets just 600 on the turn.

47:55 “The river can instantly turn a losing hand into a winner.” While objectively true, so can the flop or turn. So can aggressive betting, if you really want to get technical. And many hands that start ahead preflop stay ahead the whole way. In fact, if you added up all of the play in NLHE, both cash and tourney, I’d bet the river ranks last or second to last as the point where hands most frequently end.

49:03 La Linda says she played “at least two dozen tournaments” before she lasted until the second dinner break for the first time. At what stakes did she start playing tourneys? I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems most people are playing those fast-structured daily and weekly tourneys for the first cracks at MTTs before getting into the types of event that have dinner breaks, let alone two dinner breaks.

49:20 William says he plays 40 hands per hour, 8-12 hours per day, etc. The hours per day and the six or seven days per week is weird enough, since we don’t see him playing poker that much in this movie. It’s the 40 hand per hour. Where? That’s awfully fast for live play, way too slow for online.

49:40 I commended Dynan earlier, but I’m thoroughly confused by the slow push-in on William as Cirk and La Linda talk about museums in this scene. This might be the fault of the DP (Dynan), the director (Schrader) or editor (Ben Rodriguez), since the editor ultimately chose to use it. The move seems unmotivated. Is the discussion triggering something in William? Why should the audience be focused on him? For all I know, this might be a giant Chekhov’s gun, so if I end up deleting this comment, you’ll never know I wrote it. Otherwise, I’m sinning it. Right now, it feels like either Dynan or Schrader got bored, turned to the dolly grip, and said, “Get off your phone and get to work.”

50:35 Props for the quick aside about 5,000 being tournament chips, not dollars. It’s 2021 (when this movie came out), and some people have a hard time grasping that. It also explains part of Cirk’s purpose: he is the stand-in for the portion of the audience who doesn’t know poker.

52:11 More “USA! USA! USA!” The last time someone tried to paint such an unflattering portrait of a poker player, Ninja, Mr. Beast and Alex Botez were seated together at the Hustler.

53:27 “What did that mean when you said that the other day?” “Say what?” More of the pronoun game again. I swear, the script writer puts this in there to stretch out the running time.

53:35 “It’s an odd thing to say.” La Linda continues to read Scorcese’s notes to Schrader as part of the dialogue.

54:20 La Linda’s entire run of lines is so stilted that it feels like it was intended to be only one half of coverage, but never got edited. I was starting to wonder if Ben Rodriguez is relatively new at this, but then I see he has been editing short films, music videos and a TV series over the past decade. This further illustrates the folly in Schrader’s decision to only do one or two takes per scene.

57:00 While the WSOP gets name-dropped throughout this film, whoever bottled that whiskey decided they did not want to be seen. I’ll say it’s Knob Creek. And even if it isn’t, I recommend Knob Creek to anyone who likes a solid bourbon.

1:01:20 Between the whole imprisonment and revenge fantasy that this movie appears to lead up to, plus this addition of Clay Williams, a black prisoner who might be used as muscle, I’m starting to think Schrader watched the 1996 film Sleepers a day before sitting down to pen The Card Counter.

1:04:44 Cirk talks about Google Earth and its Street View as if it’s brand new. Yet he’s holding what appears to be an iPhone X at the oldest, so we know this is current day. Also, he says he can see Gordo’s front entrance and back entrance. Depending on the orientation of Gordo’s home, I doubt the Google camera cars are going into backyards to create their images.

And is this the reason we wasted a couple of minutes on Cirk not wanting to follow William into Leavenworth? To create some dead time during which Cirk finds Gordo’s house on Google Earth?

Also, five sins off for Cirk wearing tube socks with flip flops.

1:07.55 Cirk has various basic parts of poker explained to him, yet actually knows the definition of “tilt.” Maybe he really did read Poker For Dummies.

1:09.06 Classic movie cliche of type on a computer screen being 10 times larger than it truly would be, simply for the sake of the movie audience to read what the character is reading.

1:10.10 The “USA! USA!” guys show up at the Scarlet Pearl. I think they’d fit right in.

1:11.49 The RunItUp patch on the stereotypical sunglasses-and-hoodie guy is a nice touch.

1:12.48 Rock Poker? What a weird name for an online site. I guess WeakTight and UberNit were taken.

1:12.48 William orders a Jack Daniel’s, neat. But he gets what appears to be Dr. Pepper.

1:13.00 If the crying dealer at the bar doesn’t pay off in the third act, I’m adding it to the list of “Useless Things Paul Schrader Kept In To Pad The Run Time.”

1:14.28 The J-Cut of William’s narration goes over whatever Tiffany Haddish’s last line was. Given how her acting has been throughout, I’m chalking this up to another editorial choice. But then cut the scene off at William’s blank look when La Linda asks “what you doing tomorrow night?” And leave it at that.

1:14:50 The scene cuts to sign for “ophiopogon japonicus” in a garden. That’s a form of grass, not the bed of Black-eyed susans they’re actually showing. But if Schrader really wanted to cut to some random plant in a garden, why not show a bunch of poker primrose and see if anyone gets the reference?

The choice to have Haddish’s voice talking below the music tells me that this was more awful acting that the filmmakers had no choice but to mask. Thus, make the artistic choice to throw it underneath. Her back is turned to the camera, so you can use whichever take you want and we won’t know the difference.

Finally, the entire decision to have William and La Linda take a walk through this light show was clearly an opportunity to give Dynan a cameo. If Joe Stapleton’s cameo was a player who busts out to the USA USA guys, Dynan’s cameo is the chance to shoot this insane light show at the Missouri Botanical Garden.

But that brings up a different point… I’m starting to get really confused by the geography of this movie. We see William unpack that motel room of its sheets and twine. Then we see him playing at the Scarlet Pearl, which is on the Gulf coast. It suggests we’ve relocated. But then they’re taking a walk through the Garden Glow, 650 miles to the north in St. Louis. They were closer when William went to visit Leavenworth.

1:20.00 Another pad-the-runtime moment. We see Cirk take a slow sip of water on the couch, then cut to a wide shot showing a bunch of people gambling in the background. It takes a full five Mississippis – yes, I use that intentionally – for William to enter frame from the right. It’s a place where a skilled editor would lop off a few seconds. Instead, it adds to the plodding pace of this film, and only under the guise that it helps establish Cirk’s boredom while he continually waits for William and La Linda.

1:20:10 Is Cirk the titular card counter? He has played more blackjack in this film than William, albeit offscreen. And he hasn’t gone busto that we’ve seen, so it suggests he’s a net winner.

“It’s cool. It’s all the same, it’s repetitive. I really don’t feel like it’s going anywhere.” Once again, a Scorcese note to Schrader makes it into a character’s dialogue.

1:23.00 Uh oh, sinister music playing, dogs barking, wet asphalt in an empty parking lot outside a seedy motel. I wonder if something serious is supposed to happen here? Maybe something to take us into the third act?

1:23:30 Our first look in the new motel room and – oh good! – same furniture as the Super 6 in the previous location. That sure is convenient for the amount of sheets and twine William carries around that this room is as sparsely furnished as the last one!

1:28.12 Did I say sinister? It was a fake-out. The lighting, the “World Series of Torture” comment, the rolling up the sleeves, the rubber gloves, then the twist. I’m not sure what to think of this whole scene, other than it’s the most threatening “here’s $150K, go visit your mother, get her out of trouble, pay your college debts and have a happy ending” speech ever made in a movie.

So Cirk’s mom lives in Fall River, Oregon. Remember Fall River, Oregon, because from what Ive seen so far, I can bet any amount of money that this film will play fast and loose with the geography of Fall River, Oregon in the third act.

1:29.55 Oh FFS, now Haddish is literally wearing a WSOP T-shirt.

1:31.12 Not since The Room have I seen such a cringeworthy sex scene.

1:32.54 The composition of the shot with Oscar Isaac on the left third suggests there will be a huge reveal in seat 5. And it’s… (drumroll)… Captain Tom Franklin? Turns out, he was the other poker advisor, and his cameo is more visible because he gets to wear his famous fedora bearing his name.

1:33.10 The USA USA guy is back and at another final table. Thus far, we’ve seen three final tables. The with Stapes, where we know he finishes at least second. The one with William, which he clearly wins. And this. Maybe La Linda picked the wrong horse.

1:33.24 A final table with cool stage lighting and gels, which an announcer to boot. Yet everyone is sitting in what appears to be $150 Walmart kitchen chairs. Forget what I said about Rodriguez, I now want to have a word with Ashley Fenton (production designer) and Christine Brandt (art director).

1:34.00 Oh, so the Google Earth thing pays off after all. We see the photo of Gordo’s house when Cirk texts William.

1:34.20 More props to Dynan for this unsetting closeup of William. I shoot almost strictly with a long lens, so I’ve never liked the wide and ultrawide look, but goddamn it if that didn’t look badass. One sin off.

1:35.38 Down to three, and it’s William, Captain Tom and the USA USA guy. His ROI must be off the charts. Then again, we’ve followed William, and he’s managed to final table every stop, too. So maybe La Linda did okay.

1:36.00 They’re at the final table and the chips are still 25/100/500 in denomination??

1:36.15 The poker media table in the background did not have Kevmath. Five sins for that!

1:37.10 William, clearly distracted by Cirk’s text, suddenly decides to walk away from the table. The dealer asks for the floor. First of all, the floor would be standing right there – there’s only one table left. But secondly, what ruling does she need that she can’t make for herself? The guy left. His hand is dead. And his hand will continue to be dead so long as he isn’t at his seat, which we do see later.

1:37:28 A pellet gun? Why have Cirk go through the trouble of traveling all the way to Rockville, Virginia, only to threaten Gordo with something that Ralphie asked for in A Christmas Story? Cirk said he wanted to torture and kill Gordo. He thinks his late father turned abusive and suicidal because of Gordo. Yes, William gives that entire speech about “forced drift” to Cirk, but this would not have been the result. If the speech takes, Cirk goes home to Oregon. If the speech doesn’t, Cirk’s hate and want of vengeance remains strong. A pellet gun makes no damn sense. It’s as if Schrader wanted to make Cirk as sympathetic as possible, thus making his death all the more tragic.

1:38:20 The way William storms out of the room, presumably to head to Rockville, suggests he’ll need to buy all new sheets and twine. One thing for sure, whoever does housekeeping will be quite confused by the site.

1:39:49 Wait… did he drive straight from Las Vegas to Rockville? He’s still wearing the same shirt and tie. I guess that is technically a straight shot on I-70. But unless he drives for 36 hours straight without stopping to rest at motels (without his sheets and twine, mind you), this timeline is more out of whack than Looper.

1:44:30 Who did what to whom? We hear one man beating and torturing the other, and we’re meant to assume it’s William having his way with Gordo. Then we see William come out of the room, limping, badly wounded, and in great pain. He had the drop on Gordo the whole time, right? He led him at gunpoint into the bedroom. At no point should Gordo have gotten the upper hand. This should have been William doing his business, then walking out of the room, clean as a whistle.

I’ve heard suggestions that this movie is supposed to parallel Schrader’s breakout work, Taxi Driver. So William is like Travis, Cirk is Iris’ analog, and I guess Gordo is Sport. So perhaps the shot of William exiting the room, beaten but victorious, is meant to match a bloodied Travis, on the couch when the police arrive? But Travis makes sense: he was one guy taking on a group of armed pimps and goons. This one doesn’t track.

Surprise, Taxi Driver might be a better movie than The Card Counter.



TL;DR, my spoiler-free reaction: Overall, I liked it but didn’t love it. The fact that it's dark – literally and figuratively – is actually quite up my alley. It's 1970s-like pacing will also bore most viewers, especially younger ones, but that's also my preference.

Brags: Oscar Isaac’s performance, Schrader’s overall theme, Alex Dynan’s cinematography.
Beats: Tiffany Haddish’s acting in general, but her character as well. Editing is sloppy.
Variance: One character is almost cartoonish to the point of being a walking tonal shift, but it’s possible that this character was meant to serve as an archetype for the broader theme, so I can give it a pass in retrospect. Still would have done without it, though.

Also, this movie had a lot more poker than I expected, especially after so much of the talk we heard in the immediate weeks after its release. But indeed, it is NOT a poker movie. I’ll go a step further by saying there is probably a better version of this movie where blackjack completely replaces poker as the backdrop, but I can’t explain much more than that without spoiling it.
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07-08-2022 , 02:58 PM
The Card Counter is an awful movie. I watched last night and could barely finish. The first half hour or so I thought it had potential to be okay but that thought diminished quickly.

I can never understand why Hollywood can't employ experts in the field of the story they are telling. This goes for gamblers, poker players, gun handlers, you name it.
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07-08-2022 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall_Cool
I can never understand why Hollywood can't employ experts in the field of the story they are telling. This goes for gamblers, poker players, gun handlers, you name it.
Yeah, it's true for every field there is. Doctors wince at every hospital drama, litigators constantly find flaws in courtroom scenes, LEOs probably couldn't watch Hill Street Blues, etc. I'm a baseball guy and as such, every baseball movie gets something a bit amiss – both inaccuracies that distract me (Tim Robbins' pitching motion in Bull Durham), and inaccuracies that I like (the stadium lighting in Moneyball). Oddly, the one that probably gets the baseball the most accurate is the 2005 version of The Bad News Bears.

I can't know what your threshold for "experts" is, but film producers employ consultants for almost everything. That's not the problem. What seems to vary is a) how hard the adviser puts his/her foot down on getting details right, and b) how much the filmmaker ultimately heeds the advice.

That said, unless a director needs to do so for the sake of dramatic license, why not just get the little things right? Having the same antagonist show up at three different final tables is far fetched as hell, but that guy is at least necessary for the symbolism. So I can understand that one. On the other hand, there is no reason why they can't show the blackjack actions in the correct order, just as an example.
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07-08-2022 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Yeah, it's true for every field there is. Doctors wince at every hospital drama, litigators constantly find flaws in courtroom scenes, LEOs probably couldn't watch Hill Street Blues, etc. I'm a baseball guy and as such, every baseball movie gets something a bit amiss – both inaccuracies that distract me (Tim Robbins' pitching motion in Bull Durham), and inaccuracies that I like (the stadium lighting in Moneyball). Oddly, the one that probably gets the baseball the most accurate is the 2005 version of The Bad News Bears.

I can't know what your threshold for "experts" is, but film producers employ consultants for almost everything. That's not the problem. What seems to vary is a) how hard the adviser puts his/her foot down on getting details right, and b) how much the filmmaker ultimately heeds the advice.

That said, unless a director needs to do so for the sake of dramatic license, why not just get the little things right? Having the same antagonist show up at three different final tables is far fetched as hell, but that guy is at least necessary for the symbolism. So I can understand that one. On the other hand, there is no reason why they can't show the blackjack actions in the correct order, just as an example.
its obviously supposed to be jungleman
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11-20-2022 , 10:39 PM
Tiffany Haddish was fine and this movie was better than most people ITT are saying.

It is true that it's not really a poker movie.

The poker things that niggled at me, although #1 and #3 might just be my ignorance or missing something:

1) When he's heads up and loses the hand to Mr. USA! USA!, they don't run it out?
2) Mr. USA! USA! makes every final table.
3) Tell says that when you're part of a stable and fail to cash in a tourney you're backed in, the buyin comes out of your future winnings? Is that true?
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02-05-2023 , 04:58 PM
Free HBO/Cinemax weekend on Directv, recorded The Card Counter, watched it. I have no idea how Paul Schrader supposedly wrote Taxi Driver, etc. as The Card Counter’s entire script and dialogue sounded like it was written by a middle school drama club. It was horrifically bad dialogue. The premise of the story had potential, but this end-product was miles away from that. Thumbs down.
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