Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-11-2015, 01:07 PM   #201
sirin
old hand
 
sirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Grappling with local oaf
Posts: 1,963
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by limon View Post
what good does it do to play against a "confirmed human" if that human is just inputting computer aided decisions? This is where online poker has been headed from day 1. Botting isnt as much cheating as its the inevitable endpoint where hud advancements have been taking us for years.

The "solutions" I see offered here might buy online poker as we know it an extra year or 2 but, essentially, the gig is up. Computers will play better than people do at every poker variant shortly. This will be widely publicized as it was in Chess. Randos showing up to drop decent money online, money that someone else can make a living off, will cease to exist. Online poker will go the way of chess outside private groups or online "home games". Some pools will self segregate for protection.

The REAL problem is computer aided decision making sneaking into live poker. It could basically end casino poker completely. Casino poker as a viable profession, live and on-line, is very sensitive to even small changes in the rec/pro balance because of rake considerations. In the near future its likely poker could go back being a game mostly played by friends/acquaintances in private settings for social time more than money. Of course there will always be money to be made by the motivated rounder as one mans "social fun" is another mans mortgage payment.
Do you not think that other poker variants, including some which haven't been invented, becoming more popular is more likely than poker dying off completely?

After all, presumably the variants that are popular now which were unknown 50 years were also developed as a result of changing game conditions.
sirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:08 PM   #202
SSKS
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,468
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

any good pros talk about this situation?? ike haxton for once?? phil galfond??
SSKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:12 PM   #203
DarkMattersMan
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 961
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSKS View Post
any good pros talk about this situation?? ike haxton for once?? phil galfond??
They will start talking in a few years. When bots and 3rd party software starts affecting them personally....
DarkMattersMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:12 PM   #204
limon
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: @limonpoker
Posts: 5,470
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirin View Post
Do you not think that other poker variants, including some which haven't been invented, becoming more popular is more likely than poker dying off completely?

After all, presumably the variants that are popular now which were unknown 50 years were also developed as a result of changing game conditions.
well yes because it takes people a long time to figure out super-stud or badeucy, the sharp minds live off the slow minds then change the game but in the near future a computer program could solve these games in seconds. slow minds can catch up to quick with computer aid and other slow minds will quit completely because its "rigged" "solved" "no fun".
limon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:12 PM   #205
Uh*Oh
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 761
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mme View Post
if i understand it right ..again the suspects stick out as being top winners at the stakes. so quite naturally there is a something in cheaters that is easy to spot.

find a way to weed out players that play to well.
These are the cheaters too dumb, lazy or naive to take easy precautions to cover their tracks. We have to assume that there are far more who are not.
Uh*Oh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:16 PM   #206
scroosko
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: dancing on the street when ps dies
Posts: 1,177
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSKS View Post
any good pros talk about this situation?? ike haxton for once?? phil galfond??
in the incredibly selfish world of the pro poker player people with concerns about probable bots would have informed stars about them and avoided playing with them but kept quiet to other players and forums as threads like this would scare players off and harm the liquidity of the plo games. its much the same as people that have been scammed that are more than happy for other people to be scammed for months if it increases their chances of being paid back.
scroosko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:17 PM   #207
everydaygrind
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 742
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
It's unfathomable that pokerstars themselves are running bots of this kind. Please don't post about that anymore, it takes away from the seriousness of this.
Pokerstars doesn't need to run bots. All they have to do is "allow" them.

Think about it. They are "allowing" bots to play 12+ tables 24/7 and if they get caught, they take the money in the accounts and they give SOME money to the victims. It's a win/win for them.
everydaygrind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 01:38 PM   #208
e i pi
veteran
 
e i pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ☃
Posts: 2,230
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

someone come up with a 2 deck card game. would have the benefit of decreasing a card sharing edge and also bring up the running time of the game solving algorithms into the infeasible realm.
e i pi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:28 PM   #209
apokerplayer
adept
 
apokerplayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Author of poker tells books/videos
Posts: 1,039
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Someone just tweeted at me that couple players featured in excel example are real people. For what it's worth. Don't know the guy. Id link pic but on my phone. My Twitter is apokerplayer if someone wants to ask that guy more.

Last edited by apokerplayer; 06-11-2015 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Changed names as I wasn't sure of them
apokerplayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:49 PM   #210
BGnight
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BGnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: POO POO!!!
Posts: 9,964
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I play on a legal, regulated U.S. site (wsopNV) and they don't allow HUDs and the games are great (unfortunately they allow HUDs in NJ). If poker comes back to the U.S. full force they should have severe legal ramifications for using a bot or a hud. When a few people go to prison for the first time for using a bot or a HUD then things will change and online poker will flourish. They have the technology to catch/prevent people from doing this.

Bots may be a big concern but they are already illegal and they can be dealt with. It's HUDs that will kill online poker. There must be a strictly enforced ban on using them if online poker is ever going to flourish.

I would get great joy at seeing one of these scumbag botters being hauled off in cuffs to a federal pound me in the ass prison. They are worthless cheaters.

Last edited by BGnight; 06-11-2015 at 02:54 PM.
BGnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 02:53 PM   #211
BGnight
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BGnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: POO POO!!!
Posts: 9,964
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I hope this scandal keeps Pokerstars from returning to the U.S. They were supposed to launch soon in NJ. Serves them right.
BGnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:43 PM   #212
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10,247
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

This is now the #1 top news on Pokernews.com
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:49 PM   #213
Donkem
journeyman
 
Donkem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Close to donks
Posts: 359
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGnight View Post
Bots may be a big concern but they are already illegal and they can be dealt with. It's HUDs that will kill online poker. There must be a strictly enforced ban on using them if online poker is ever going to flourish.
How blind do you people have to be to not realize that HUDs are precisely what allowed to find these bots in the first place?

Also people who talk about this being collusion r wrong, just bc it's suspicious activity, doesnt mean it's collusion, stop and analyse what u have in front of you. U have about 16 stats that close to equal in all accounts, colluders are still people just bc they see extra cards doesnt mean they suddenly play the same.

So this has to be some type of programming, not necessarily bots, or it might be some type of multiaccounting business by a single person.
Donkem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 03:56 PM   #214
Alizona
temp-banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 3,022
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGnight View Post
I hope this scandal keeps Pokerstars from returning to the U.S. They were supposed to launch soon in NJ. Serves them right.
So we can't trust the players, clearly... but we also can't trust the site's software itself. How could anyone possibly trust something without ever seeing the actual software code? I've been playing on the play money side of Stars since they allowed we "Land of the Free" (LOL that's a good one) Americans back on, and the RNG is highly suspect. They're very obviously using what I call an "Action RNG" or what others might call a "pseudo random number generator". How else did you expect Amaya to recoup BILLIONS that they paid? By being honest in a world that rewards dishonesty??!! The poker world is truly filled with suckers and saps.
Alizona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 04:02 PM   #215
scroosko
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: dancing on the street when ps dies
Posts: 1,177
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alizona View Post
So we can't trust the players, clearly... but we also can't trust the site's software itself. How could anyone possibly trust something without ever seeing the actual software code? I've been playing on the play money side of Stars since they allowed we "Land of the Free" (LOL that's a good one) Americans back on, and the RNG is highly suspect. They're very obviously using what I call an "Action RNG" or what others might call a "pseudo random number generator". How else did you expect Amaya to recoup BILLIONS that they paid? By being honest in a world that rewards dishonesty??!! The poker world is truly filled with suckers and saps.
you pay to get play money chips to play on stars when there are other free options elsewhere? sucker!
scroosko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 04:07 PM   #216
Alizona
temp-banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 3,022
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scroosko View Post
you pay to get play money chips to play on stars when there are other free options elsewhere? sucker!
Nice try bud (not really)... I had 11 million play chips from pre-Black Friday days of playing on Stars, and when I returned this year, they were still in my account. I don't remember even playing on the play chip side back in the day (the good old days) when we were "allowed" by our (mis)leaders to play with "Federal" (lol) Reserve Notes... so maybe I'm a scammer? Why don't you try that angle instead, bud? Maybe you'll get lucky and figure me out!

Oh yeah, I've doubled my stake to 22 million play chips now, but I still see "issues" with the RNG. So why not say it's just sour grapes on my part - go for the gusto and accuse me of everything, why the heck not?!

Last edited by Alizona; 06-11-2015 at 04:13 PM.
Alizona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 04:32 PM   #217
gdsfather
grinder
 
gdsfather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: earth and space
Posts: 591
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

2008 Reg date and still clueless :/. Rigtard thread is -----> way.
gdsfather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 04:34 PM   #218
drezyna
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: euro
Posts: 64
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Is the dream over?
drezyna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 06:05 PM   #219
BGnight
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BGnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: POO POO!!!
Posts: 9,964
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkem View Post
How blind do you people have to be to not realize that HUDs are precisely what allowed to find these bots in the first place?
Lol. Still doesn't mean HUDs aren't killing online poker, because they are.
If your sole argument in favor of HUDs is to find bots then that's laughable.
BGnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 06:06 PM   #220
NhlNut
KANGZ
 
NhlNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: RANGZ
Posts: 17,724
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alizona View Post
So we can't trust the players, clearly... but we also can't trust the site's software itself. How could anyone possibly trust something without ever seeing the actual software code?
NV GCB studies and approves all software.
It took wsop months to fix a (publicly unknown) bug in their limit software. Part of that is they need approval for any change in the software.

The problem is that wsop hasn't had enough money at play to make a concerted effort to scam worth it. What happens when/if that changes is anyone's guess.
NhlNut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 06:22 PM   #221
pontylad
banned
 
pontylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: meh, fr, 6 max or hu?! :S:S
Posts: 8,504
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by limon View Post
what good does it do to play against a "confirmed human" if that human is just inputting computer aided decisions? This is where online poker has been headed from day 1. Botting isnt as much cheating as its the inevitable endpoint where hud advancements have been taking us for years.

The "solutions" I see offered here might buy online poker as we know it an extra year or 2 but, essentially, the gig is up. Computers will play better than people do at every poker variant shortly. This will be widely publicized as it was in Chess. Randos showing up to drop decent money online, money that someone else can make a living off, will cease to exist. Online poker will go the way of chess outside private groups or online "home games". Some pools will self segregate for protection.

The REAL problem is computer aided decision making sneaking into live poker. It could basically end casino poker completely. Casino poker as a viable profession, live and on-line, is very sensitive to even small changes in the rec/pro balance because of rake considerations. In the near future its likely poker could go back being a game mostly played by friends/acquaintances in private settings for social time more than money. Of course there will always be money to be made by the motivated rounder as one mans "social fun" is another mans mortgage payment.
Make another thread if you want to talk about that issue, don't detract from the current one.
pontylad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 06:52 PM   #222
FlapJacks316
grinder
 
FlapJacks316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 448
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
They introduce TPM, like a Pokerstars-Playstation - go screen scraping and have a 6axis robot arm clicking the buttons
Damn, I thought of this yesterday ...back to the drawing board lol.

Actually, nvm .You sum it up pretty well ..There is no way to stop a bots/rings. The more they try to stop them, all the botters/programmers have to do, is have slightly more human involvement.


gg online poker
gg live poker (card marking, chip smuggling, colluders)

so basically, gg Poker


In b4 live botters wearing sun glasses that can scrape hole cards/boards and relay their buddy's hole cards sitting 2 seats over while having the bot produce the correct plays
FlapJacks316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 07:41 PM   #223
Sh@i'tan
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,908
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
They can only monitor so much. And all the monitoring has to happen on the users machine and will be observable by the bot operator.
So they run a function to check what urls i have open in my browser - i will just hijack this function and return a nice innocent list that fits my bot's profile.
They want to check if i run on a VM... hijack that function, or much easier, masq your VM.

They run checks for integrity of PS client and make manipulation too hard - move to VM and screen capturing.

They introduce TPM, like a Pokerstars-Playstation - go screen scraping and have a 6axis robot arm clicking the buttons

Same goes for assistive software.

I don't understand. How can the only monitor so much? poker stars can't code their software in such a way that they get complete access to everything that's going on on your computer everything. Seriously? call it ignorance on my part I guess but I'm dumbfounded by this.

I'll post about the bolded later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post

in September 7 accounts were reported to stars, 5 of them were banned.
I just found out that the 7th account I was referencing in this post was banned 28 months after being reported to poker stars for being a bot.

Last edited by Sh@i'tan; 06-11-2015 at 07:58 PM.
Sh@i'tan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 08:12 PM   #224
powder_8s
temp-banned
 
powder_8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: muck with a capital F
Posts: 3,788
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkem View Post
How blind do you people have to be to not realize that HUDs are precisely what allowed to find these bots in the first place?
All hand histories can/should be made available 24 hrs after a session is done. That way people can review and check up on hands. The problem is Pokerstars makes their hand histories available in real time. Allowing HUDS and bots to work easily.

Does Pokerstars have a piece of the hud manufactures? Why do they even allow it? What do they get out of? They must know it is turning off rec players.
powder_8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2015, 08:21 PM   #225
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10,247
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

^Bots don't need a HUD to function. I might be completely ******ed here but I don't think they adjust and play exploititively.

Maybe I shouldn't comment on something I really don't know anything about, heh (srs, not being facetious)
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive