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Old 06-11-2015, 12:03 AM   #176
TimStone
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Max 1 russian/belarussian/ukranian/kazak per table until this is solved

Max 1 per 25entries for zoom as well



Worked in rgds to teh chinese couple of years back
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:30 AM   #177
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Anything outted on the zoom nl200 side?
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:14 AM   #178
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKingdom View Post
Watching Sauce play Ziig and Lars atm and obviously they've worked very hard to get where they are but it must be kinda nice to sit in a game where every player (albeit highly skilled) is known for many years and pay 5$ rake on 40k pots. Ofc you'd love some unknown whale to sit but in some ways they have it good that's all I'm saying.
I would think a bunch of extremely intelligent guys with plenty of cash playing 1 table for hundreds of thousands are more likely to have some pretty sophisticated software aiding them than a random 100nl table full of unknowns. pretty naive to think otherwise imo
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:57 AM   #179
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G View Post

Would like to add that websites largely by their own choice have created an environment where the best course of action is to try and minimize the perception that collusion occurs and do everything they can to protect themselves and as a by-product, protect the cheaters.

Why do collusion refund emails state:

We can't tell you who cheated you.
We can't tell you what games you were cheated in.
We can't tell you what date you were cheated on.
We can't tell you our refund policy or why you were given the amount you were given.

This is done by design so websites can pocket money off of colluders.
This is done so players can't argue that their refund is unfair.
This is done so players can't tell other players to check if their refund was fair or if they even got a refund.

This is sold to us that the websites don't have a say in the matter and it's the various gaming commissions who insist on this privacy and non disclosure of any details pertaining to refunds. Who pays these gaming commissions?

And as an afterthought if a player complains that 2 people are cheating proactively the response is that the players are banned and will never play on the site again. Therefore that's a violation of those players privacy if this "law" actually exists.
Spot-on!
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:23 AM   #180
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

This is brutal
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:25 AM   #181
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimStone View Post
Max 1 russian/belarussian/ukranian/kazak per table until this is solved

Max 1 per 25entries for zoom as well



Worked in rgds to teh chinese couple of years back
Would anything run if this was implemented?
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:50 AM   #182
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimStone View Post
Max 1 russian/belarussian/ukranian/kazak per table until this is solved

Max 1 per 25entries for zoom as well

Worked in rgds to teh chinese couple of years back
Just prevent them from being seated at the same Zoom tables.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:53 AM   #183
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by Jeff W View Post
Just prevent them from being seated at the same Zoom tables.
And new bots?
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:05 AM   #184
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by TopPair2Pair View Post
And new bots?
Well, at least they need to obtain identities and bank accounts outside Eastern Europe to restart their bot network. Anyway, as we talked about in the HSPLO thread, they desperately need to improve their algorithms for identifying new bots. This bot network was flagrant in multiple ways and it's disheartening that Pokerstars couldn't catch them before they withdrew so much money.
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:54 AM   #185
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Sanger View Post
This is brutal
What flips me out is how insignificant this thread is. People are more interested in debating if Timex can beat zoom and piling on Phil Helmuth.

This basically proves online poker is a scam? DGAF. DEALERS WALKOUT HELLMUTT SUX HUZZAR
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:35 AM   #186
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
I am quite sure current bots don't use screen capturing to follow the game, and even if they would - it is almost trivial to write ocr/pattern detection that adapts to such visual changes.

I would rather reverse engineer the PS Client and write a modified version for professional botting. This way you have full input output control, you can easily circumvent their countermeasures (e.g. mouse movement detection) captcha popping up,debugging detection...

Having a glance at mac os x PS client - i am kind of disappointed, i would have at least expected some basic anti debugging mechanism and obfuscation.
Well, at least they haven't spelled all their function names like party poker does:
PGBots,investigationId,AlertBotDetectionFail,mBotA lertType,getOpenUrls..... seriously...

All that being said, you can make botting (much) harder, but at the and you can always and easily circumvent all of the countermeasures with use of screen capturing and virtual input device....

The only thing left is detection through statistical or behavioral abnormalities - but not only is this very error prone (and you would wan't to avoid false positives at all cost) - and bot rings will also adapt...eg i am sure the next network will not be running their bots 8 hour shifts 5 days a week... and try to not have too similar stats....maybe just play with each other to falsify stats...
wouldn't poker stars monitoring everything running on a person's computer prevent them from running a bot?

I don't agree with the bolded either. We're talking about the future sustainability of online poker. if you cannot stop the bots, poker is dead.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:19 AM   #187
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOCTUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
To slightly misquote a famous line from Orwell's '1984': If you want a vision of the future, imagine a bot stamping on a human face - forever.
oh god this is amazing
+++++01011001 01100101 01110011

Unreal. Well done. Stellar post overall... Arty is killing this thread.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:45 AM   #188
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Captchas won't do **** for anything when it comes to advanced bots beating midstakes poker. If you don't want to hire a russian friend for $5/hr to sit at the computer and wait for a captcha to pop up, you can outsource the entire thing across the globe and pay an indian $0.50/hr to do it instead over remote desktop.
I disagree - Captchas can still reduce bot prevalance.

It adds a lot of complication to a Russian bot owner's life if has to source/trust a stable of Indian Captcha jockeys.

Also, with regard to what other posters said about bots being able to read Captchas - *IF* PokerStars cared enough, they could do a lot more than a simple Captcha. Combined audio/visual Captchas are pretty effing secure.

I find it very had to believe that PokerStars was not aware that there were multiple players who had nearly identical stats, within a few hundredths of a percent, across hundreds of thousands of hands. I don't know what's more likely - that they weren't looking for this, or they didn't care :/

I'll be honest, I'd prefer a site where I had to enter a captcha on every action. Personally I don't play much any more because I ***** hate playing mass multitablers who take the max time on every decision.

I get that a lot of people on this site make their money from multitabling, but I can tell you, it's not very interesting for people who don't multitable. I don't think I've logged in to a poker site in about 3 months... so gg multitablers and bots, job well done.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:51 AM   #189
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Following
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:55 AM   #190
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
wouldn't poker stars monitoring everything running on a person's computer prevent them from running a bot?

I don't agree with the bolded either. We're talking about the future sustainability of online poker. if you cannot stop the bots, poker is dead.
They can only monitor so much. And all the monitoring has to happen on the users machine and will be observable by the bot operator.
So they run a function to check what urls i have open in my browser - i will just hijack this function and return a nice innocent list that fits my bot's profile.
They want to check if i run on a VM... hijack that function, or much easier, masq your VM.

They run checks for integrity of PS client and make manipulation too hard - move to VM and screen capturing.

They introduce TPM, like a Pokerstars-Playstation - go screen scraping and have a 6axis robot arm clicking the buttons

Same goes for assistive software.

With statistical analysis of play you will maybe catch inexperienced botters who share hole-cards too obvious (always play the same time 9-5)... but especially with large enough bot ring you can work around this issues.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:13 AM   #191
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckamuck View Post
I disagree - Captchas can still reduce bot prevalance.

It adds a lot of complication to a Russian bot owner's life if has to source/trust a stable of Indian Captcha jockeys.

Also, with regard to what other posters said about bots being able to read Captchas - *IF* PokerStars cared enough, they could do a lot more than a simple Captcha. Combined audio/visual Captchas are pretty effing secure.

I find it very had to believe that PokerStars was not aware that there were multiple players who had nearly identical stats, within a few hundredths of a percent, across hundreds of thousands of hands. I don't know what's more likely - that they weren't looking for this, or they didn't care :/

I'll be honest, I'd prefer a site where I had to enter a captcha on every action. Personally I don't play much any more because I ***** hate playing mass multitablers who take the max time on every decision.

I get that a lot of people on this site make their money from multitabling, but I can tell you, it's not very interesting for people who don't multitable. I don't think I've logged in to a poker site in about 3 months... so gg multitablers and bots, job well done.
Forget captchas or other constantly running reverse touring test. You can't play zoom poker with a captcha popping up every action now can you?
And then, just imagine you hold the nuts and you fail to call all in because some complicated captcha pops up and you fail the test...
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:27 AM   #192
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Well at least we now know how often to cbet the various streets and how often to check call e.t.c to crush midstakes.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:46 AM   #193
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

There will never be a banning of bots. The pokersites only concern is rake generation. Fish will play regardless. Bots prop up games and keep tables full chruning pot after pot. They don't care if nobody human can win playing. Need a quick EPS boost? Bust some bot accounts and confiscate the money. The players who are hurt will never know the true amount and you can offer them a quick panacea to appease/keep the thinking ones playing. Rake, Rake, Rake goes on.

The real solution is MAX1-2 tables, no hand histories, no limits above 100 NL, segregated player pools and constant monitoring but it will never happen because it would not be profitable for the site.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:25 AM   #194
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xRNG View Post
Forget captchas or other constantly running reverse touring test. You can't play zoom poker with a captcha popping up every action now can you?
And then, just imagine you hold the nuts and you fail to call all in because some complicated captcha pops up and you fail the test...
It doesn't have to be reverse turing.

PokerStars have the ability to hire/contract best-in-breed software programmers... people who will be able to figure out a way to provide a somewhat acceptable compromise between security and playability.

Anything would be better than the current state of affairs, right?
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:50 AM   #195
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Birdwatcher: Bots is a problem to the sites because of the bad reputation it will give. No big site will be willing to risk having their Company name assosiated with such negativities. The single biggest concern for CEOs is taking hits to the Company name. The small extra generated rake is nothing compared.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:53 AM   #196
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

It seriously concerns me that bots exist on Pokerstars.
Might be time to grind live poker.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:00 AM   #197
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

if i understand it right ..again the suspects stick out as being top winners at the stakes. so quite naturally there is a something in cheaters that is easy to spot.

find a way to weed out players that play to well.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:37 AM   #198
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

The only acceptable result from a successful collusion investigation should be a refund to the player pool of what the cheating players has taken out of the games, net winnings + rake. They currently seem to just divide up the cheating players balance, which is a completely arbitrary amount and should have no affect on the amount of refunds that is given.

Captcha's and stuff are almost a waste of time. There are a lot of reports of these bots chating. You design a bot and run him on a laptop beside your computer, and pay an eastern european kid 5 euro's an hour to input and chat. It would beat every captcha and mouse/timing indicator easily.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:54 PM   #199
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravadomacho View Post
http://youtu.be/d5upxYyeoQ8


Pokerstars, take down this video. It's self promoted propaganda and BS. You were bluffing your players and got snapped.
I think the following post is relevant to quote here, in light of the obvious parody video posted above (they went a little heavy on the dryness of the humor):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein
Since I started this thread a couple of PokerStars mid/highstakes regs emailed me that they have reported those players from my botting list, and not just one name but few of them after spotting an obvious connection between those accounts, and yet nothing was done. PokerStars Game Integrity was getting reports on those botters as early as October 2014.

Oink and Grethe forwarded their whole investigation to PokerStars in February 2015, that was 5 months ago. I saw their thread last week and see how long it took me the find the rest of the botters, and I dont have an 8 figure budget like the Game Integrity Team.

We already have June 2015, its been 9 months since the first reports started flowing in to the Game Integrity Team. There are 10 accounts still active, at least one them plays now as I am writing this. Over the last year over 5% of my playing volume was done when I was seated with one of those cheaters at the same table.

How much longer should everyone wait quietly till this gets resolved?
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:58 PM   #200
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

what good does it do to play against a "confirmed human" if that human is just inputting computer aided decisions? This is where online poker has been headed from day 1. Botting isnt as much cheating as its the inevitable endpoint where hud advancements have been taking us for years.

The "solutions" I see offered here might buy online poker as we know it an extra year or 2 but, essentially, the gig is up. Computers will play better than people do at every poker variant shortly. This will be widely publicized as it was in Chess. Randos showing up to drop decent money online, money that someone else can make a living off, will cease to exist. Online poker will go the way of chess outside private groups or online "home games". Some pools will self segregate for protection.

The REAL problem is computer aided decision making sneaking into live poker. It could basically end casino poker completely. Casino poker as a viable profession, live and on-line, is very sensitive to even small changes in the rec/pro balance because of rake considerations. In the near future its likely poker could go back being a game mostly played by friends/acquaintances in private settings for social time more than money. Of course there will always be money to be made by the motivated rounder as one mans "social fun" is another mans mortgage payment.
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