Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2015, 04:36 PM   #51
TooRareToDie
banned
 
TooRareToDie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Life-donk
Posts: 4,303
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumalSander View Post
So wrong..
1) You can buy hands
Sad, but true

2)You can right know use icmizer/HRC 2 know whats the right play with shallow stack... ICM etc
I know, but it's pretty pointless in-game, since most moves are so opponent depended that you differ a lot from what might be right theoretically. Just as an educational tool for analysis in hindsight, this is a good tool.

3) There aint much postflop play
Not in general, but often you get a bit deeper when being 5-6 handed and HU for a while. Combined that with human elemts of changing gears etc, and I again have doubts that a bot could efficently do the right play in all spots

4) U realy dont have to be that balanced
etc..
True, nearly not at all. Fully agree. You know that balance is way easier to achieve for a bot than a human?

5) harder 2 get caught
5 sounds right at first, but MTT's get all the spotlight, so I'm not sure.
TooRareToDie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:47 PM   #52
bumpnrun
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: lol imo
Posts: 2,818
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

This is obviously terrible

where are all the PokerStars fanboys these days anyway.
bumpnrun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:52 PM   #53
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 13,251
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

From the other thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by krmont22 View Post
Made an alias of all the bots. They won 7200 from me running 31 buyins over EV vs me. Thank god I got 36 dollar refund.
Thirty-six dollars?
That's not the security team and the customer support dept doing a good job. That's a ****ing insult.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:52 PM   #54
bumpnrun
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: lol imo
Posts: 2,818
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooRareToDie View Post
Cash and SnG's are games where a few small mistakes have nearly no influence on the long-term results. Fold to a min-bet, whatever... Tables can be chosen freely, and collsuion is easy as 123. That's a slightly different story in MTT's, where you often play for equity of 50x or even more of your buy-in in one hand during late-game...

I have no doubts that a bot can somehow beat MTT's, even without the benefit of card-sharing, but once ICM becomes a factor, and stacksizes differ heavily on full tables, there are just way too many factors to sufficently program a bot to play in them. And there is no big rakeback to collect for bots in MTT's.
Bots are build to be as close to GTO as possible, afaik, and that works disgustingly well in Cash and SnG's with their static and repetitive format, but except during the earliest stages of a tournament, GTO means nothing. It's all about exploiting the table, the opponents and their styles, making use of the different stack-sizes.

MTT's are simply the softest format of poker, because they attract the biggest percentage of fun-players. But the skillset that you need to play close to perfect in MTT's combines those you need for cash and SnG's, and adds a lot difficult spots (ICM-, opponnent(s)- and stack-size-dependend) in late-game and at the final-table...

I simply don't think that all possible spots could be put into a bot for MTT's.
Who knows, I strongly doubt it.
Even if this is true they just get armies of bots to play to play early stages then a decent player to take over end game. Much like the Belarussian/Lithuanian grind house cartels are already doing, except they use ABC 12-8 playing humans early.

Time to find a way ban or segregate the low GDP countries with no fish. It needs to be impossible to make a good living off $10 an hour or they will always find a way to cheat a game thats played on the internet
bumpnrun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:55 PM   #55
consigs
enthusiast
 
consigs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 81
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Why do they support hands and massive multi tabling?

Because it equals more rake.

Everything here is driven by greed and because of that it will eventually perish.

Software created for greed.
People use the software for greed.
It's allowed for greed.

Only at the really high limits do you see the evolution of true skill anymore.
consigs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:56 PM   #56
consigs
enthusiast
 
consigs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 81
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

At the same time bots use numbers and anyone not adjusting to their own stats is probably relying on a hud as well.
consigs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 04:59 PM   #57
TooRareToDie
banned
 
TooRareToDie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Life-donk
Posts: 4,303
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpnrun View Post
Even if this is true they just get armies of bots to play to play early stages then a decent player to take over end game. Much like the Belarussian/Lithuanian grind house cartels are already doing, except they use ABC 12-8 playing humans early.

Time to find a way ban or segregate the low GDP countries with no fish. It needs to be impossible to make a good living off $10 an hour or they will always find a way to cheat a game thats played on the internet
That's...erm...the biggest benefit of poker for the society. The fact that the smart, but poor people can take the $'s off of the dumb, but rich people. But then the USA got banned, and everything went downhill...
However, problem also likely remains in MTT's to some extent, I agree

Last edited by TooRareToDie; 06-09-2015 at 05:05 PM.
TooRareToDie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:08 PM   #58
Nick_AA
old hand
 
Nick_AA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,458
News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

The technology to scrape card and pot values into a decision support software exists and there is literally nothing to stop it. Why would anyone think it's not being done when so much money is at stake?
Nick_AA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:09 PM   #59
FWWM
FOOT FF Fristion '15
 
FWWM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Out of Quarantine
Posts: 9,999
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

MTTs make it much harder/impossible to collude, seat-script and other exploits. Bots are everywhere.
FWWM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:09 PM   #60
chasern1
old hand
 
chasern1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,223
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e i pi View Post
lol @ nearly identical postflop stats over millions of hands and pokerstars doesn't notice.

maybe hire a data scientist with the millions in rake you took from the bots & cheated players.
This is actually a pretty good point, they should hire a permanent forensic data scientist who is monitoring the games.

It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out stat similarities after 20-30k hands and then investigate the players further.
chasern1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:11 PM   #61
FWWM
FOOT FF Fristion '15
 
FWWM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Out of Quarantine
Posts: 9,999
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasern1 View Post
This is actually a pretty good point, they should hire a permanent forensic data scientist who is monitoring the games.

It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out stat similarities after 20-30k hands and then investigate the players further.
Except that they dont want to slaughter the cow that they milk
FWWM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:12 PM   #62
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10,247
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Data similarities could "easily" be fixed by just adjusting some ranges by a percent here or there for every bot. 26vpip in MP or 28vpip won't make much difference results wise but would completely avoid detection through similar stats. Throw in a change in flop c/r and river barrell and it won't be detectable as the same bot.
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:15 PM   #63
Nick_AA
old hand
 
Nick_AA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,458
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by consigs View Post

Only at the really high limits do you see the evolution of true skill anymore.

Amen. Micro/low stakes are ****ing ******ed. People playing 15 Vpip and 4 3b for an entire table. They are not poker players. Mindless wastes of life. I will 10/1 to make 1 BB / 100. Ie: 8 cents per hour..... Don't waste your life peeps . There is no benefit.
Nick_AA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:21 PM   #64
Birchinio
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 660
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Data similarities could "easily" be fixed by just adjusting some ranges by a percent here or there for every bot. 26vpip in MP or 28vpip won't make much difference results wise but would completely avoid detection through similar stats. Throw in a change in flop c/r and river barrell and it won't be detectable as the same bot.
It makes no sense why they wouldn't do this. Intelligent enough to design a bot that can beat midstakes cashgames but not intelligent enough to realise identical stats in every position makes it glaringly obvious to detect?
Birchinio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:29 PM   #65
chasern1
old hand
 
chasern1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,223
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Data similarities could "easily" be fixed by just adjusting some ranges by a percent here or there for every bot. 26vpip in MP or 28vpip won't make much difference results wise but would completely avoid detection through similar stats. Throw in a change in flop c/r and river barrell and it won't be detectable as the same bot.
I guess it would take lot more time to programm winning bots with different stats, because until now most bot rings had all the same stats, but maybe we didn't catch the really good ones yet...
chasern1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:29 PM   #66
e i pi
veteran
 
e i pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ☃
Posts: 2,230
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.



I present to you, CaptchaFlop (patent pending)

I'm willing to work with sites as a consultant if a stars rep would like to pm me.
e i pi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:32 PM   #67
Uh*Oh
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 761
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birchinio View Post
It makes no sense why they wouldn't do this. Intelligent enough to design a bot that can beat midstakes cashgames but not intelligent enough to realise identical stats in every position makes it glaringly obvious to detect?
Ergo, they probably are. Likely the overwhelming majority of bot users haven't been detected. And it takes only one or a few people to develop a bot, but once it's in the public domain, it will be used by as many people as can get their hands on it. Some will be dumb enough not to take steps to minimize detection.
Uh*Oh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:47 PM   #68
LukeSilver
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 918
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

wouldnt one way to help reduce a problem simply be random checks eg suspicious accounts get a quiz why did you do play A etc or what would you do in this spot?

I doubt many players would give answers exactly in line with there play I know whilst my game does have a lot of consistently it is not exactly the same each day.

However if i said I you should shove 14% of the time in spot Y when the actual shove % should be 58% of the time and my account is borderline perfect for shoving it would indicate that some thing was wrong.

ultimately the only form of poker safe from bots is live poker or if they build computer units in casinos etc. But then it would be a hard sale why couldn't a poker game client be a black jack roulette one or few machines a roulette table etc.

but then game client can have multiple games to choose from so thats not an issue and I don't think I have ever been down my local casino and seen every gaming machine taken. most are empty.
LukeSilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:50 PM   #69
iosys
old hand
 
iosys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,753
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e i pi View Post


I present to you, CaptchaFlop (patent pending)

I'm willing to work with sites as a consultant if a stars rep would like to pm me.
Any type of captcha is completely useless if you actually follow the botting scene.
iosys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 05:55 PM   #70
LukeSilver
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 918
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

one thing is though a lot of blotting can be caught rather simply, you can find bots on youtube and google etc telling you how much they cost and how to use etc.

a simple method to help catch the problem would be to have a member of staff constantly on the look out for it. and then back engineering the software to find traces and signs to loo for etc.

also a bit of espionage and prosercutions etc would dwindle the numbers.
LukeSilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 06:11 PM   #71
e i pi
veteran
 
e i pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ☃
Posts: 2,230
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iosys View Post
Any type of captcha is completely useless if you actually follow the botting scene.
mother****

another fake patent rendered useless
e i pi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 06:12 PM   #72
DarkMattersMan
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 961
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e i pi View Post


I present to you, CaptchaFlop (patent pending)

I'm willing to work with sites as a consultant if a stars rep would like to pm me.
Excellent job. Nice one. I lol'd
DarkMattersMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 06:13 PM   #73
pontylad
banned
 
pontylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: meh, fr, 6 max or hu?! :S:S
Posts: 8,504
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Eventually a tipping point has to be reached where Game integrity outweighs that of user privacy. That point has almost certainly arrived now

Stars has again dropped the ball big time here, It's terrible pr and will no doubt look bad on a company trying to enter the US market.

I assume we're not going to hear anything from stars in this thread though?
pontylad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 06:13 PM   #74
iosys
old hand
 
iosys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,753
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e i pi View Post
mother****

another fake patent rendered useless
Humanity is really ****ty sometimes.
Imagine a sweatshop in third world country but the sweatshop's task is to solve captchas and send response back to the bot lol.

Bot detection is something I would love to work on if pokerstars is hiring any grad students lol.
iosys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 06:19 PM   #75
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powder_8s View Post
Poker Stars has essentially promoted the use of bots for many years. They promote the use of huds so that people will mass multi table. All they have to do is change the formatting of hand history readouts on a random, regular basis and bots and huds will no longer be able to read what is going on. The bots would automatically sit out the next hand until they figured out the new codes. Rinse and repeat. Poker stars problem is, to get rid of bots you also have to get rid of huds. For some reason pokerstars wants huds and bots.

Pokerstars has killed online poker.
this and segregate russia/eastern europe
MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive