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Old 06-12-2015, 08:15 PM   #276
bumpnrun
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

/me sits out vs the unbeatable shillbot :/
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:15 PM   #277
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

If you want, I will explain to you why jokes are funny and why his words are a joke, but I don't think you want to read that.

Also, it's 'troll-bot', apparently.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:51 PM   #278
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
your poker news comment is absolutely ridiculous (please delete it). Bots have been beating NL1K with very good win rates for over four years now. What the hell are you possibly going on about that you think the reason why they are playing plo is because they have to share hold cards in order to get a good edge.
Silly boy. Read more carefully. My point is the edge gained by sharing hole cards in PLO is massive, and that even a moderate player/bot would do very well against the player pool if they knew nearly a quarter of the deck that had been dealt. I don't doubt the current ability of some bots. I do doubt the intelligence of some posters on here though. (Please delete all of yours.)
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:43 PM   #279
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

that is not what you're post reads but even that notion is absurd.

It has been brought to my attention that you a history of posting downplaying the bot problem and flaming posters for posting about it,

let's bet on whether or not of the 2 million hands or so that the bots will have played together whether or not they are above all in EV by 1,66 std devs. I will even lay you odds.

1.5:1 my 1500 to your 1K says that based on all in ev of hands play with the bots together at the table there is not evidence of collusion.

if they are above all in EV by less than 1.66 standard deviations over the sample I win otherwise you win. if you're not willing to bet on your absurd notion that you posted about multiple times I kindly ask you to remove yourself from the thread
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:09 PM   #280
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
that is not what you're post reads but even that notion is absurd.

It has been brought to my attention that you a history of posting downplaying the bot problem and flaming posters for posting about it,

let's bet on whether or not of the 2 million hands or so that the bots will have played together whether or not they are above all in EV by 1,66 std devs. I will even lay you odds.

1.5:1 my 1500 to your 1K says that based on all in ev of hands play with the bots together at the table there is not evidence of collusion.

if they are above all in EV by less than 1.66 standard deviations over the sample I win otherwise you win. if you're not willing to bet on your absurd notion that you posted about multiple times I kindly ask you to remove yourself from the thread
You talk a lot of nonsense. Most likey no one in the SSFR game is more concerned about the presence of bots and AI software offering real-time assistance to players than I am. I have been at the forefront of every major issue concerning the SSFR games for years; tackling the short-stacking problem and meeting with Stars' reps to discuss that issue amongst many others, and most recently meeting again with Stars' personnel and influential players to try and find a suitable solution to seating scripts. Currently I am forming a Skype group to help combat the bot problem- a simple check of my posting history would have told you that. May I suggest you use more reliable sources going forward, and at least perform some quick and easy due diligence?

Also, completely off-topic, but a pet peeve of mine: You have a tendency to use "your" instead of "you're" as well as the less common mistake of using "you're" instead of "your". It's not the most important thing in the world of course, but my nine-year old daughter doesn't have a problem distinguishing between the two, so perhaps I could kindly ask you to devote a few minutes learning the difference if you're planning to continue this conversation.

Let's not derail the thread further though. Please PM me if you wish to talk more. Cheers.

Last edited by MeleaB; 06-12-2015 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:11 AM   #281
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Well lets not smile at our infants' quartering or make a custom of fell deeds, Lee.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:03 AM   #282
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
most recently meeting again with Stars' personnel and influential players to try and find a suitable solution to seating scripts.
still out to find a solution for seating scripts? sounds like bagdad bob to me. save assumption is stars allows all of this including bots to keep traffic numbers up. more paranoid version has them directly profiting.

the 3rd party software problem is solved when they can prove (prove, not NVG talk) that this is not happening.

Last edited by mme; 06-13-2015 at 06:31 AM. Reason: typo's
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:28 AM   #283
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Will you stop deterring the thread with totally irrelevant PMs, HUD talk etc.?
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:03 AM   #284
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

oh sorry, didnt know BBV was already awake. now go back to under your stone.
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:22 AM   #285
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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still out to find a solution for seating scripts? sounds like bagdad bob to me. save assumption is stars allows all of this including bots to keep traffic numbers up. more paranoid version has them directly profiting.

the 3rd party software problem is solved when they can prove (prove, not NVG talk) that this is not happening.
A solution was arrived at, and put forward to Stars' upper management. The last information I received was that no decision had yet been made regarding possible implementation.

As far as your reference to Stars allowing bots to keep traffic up, my experience tells me that this is an absurd notion. It is not in their best interests to have bots on their site, regardless if it generates additional rate in the short-term. They are more interested in the longevity of the games. You should know this more than anyone. IIRC, you were the guy who proposed the clever solution to the short stacking issue which Stars adopted, right?
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:43 AM   #286
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

MeleaB,

It's cool that you are invested in this issue but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Here is a post I made in a thread 40 months ago. 40 months ago.

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Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
that's fine. i'll be sure to be laughing when the smaller sites who don't care about bots run with your money. i've also stopped giving action to any website that isn't pokerstars, even though the euro sites ssnl games are incredible.

re-koko

the webcam would be to prevent people from using the bot's logic on a separate computer. not to solve the current problem, and that wasn't what i was suggesting but ok call me a troll when you don't even come up with a suggestion. the botting problem as it is now and what it will be in the future are two different things. solving today's problems won't prevent tomorrow's.
thread here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...sites-1116939/

I did not even get 200k VPPs In 2011 and I left sites with very good rb deals and softer games because of how big of a problem the NLHE bots were. I do not know how to better illustrate the point that 40 months ago it was a huge problem.

They were winning at ~4bb/100 practicing zero game selection at nl1k. They were not colluding. The bots of today are obviously much better than the bats were back then. They do not need to be colluding. They are crushing nlhe across all sites based on intelligence alone nothing to do with colluding.

At the end of 2011, I thought poker stars was the only site that had anti-bot measures in place. At the end of 2012, it was apparent to me that every single site had a serious bot problem.

Interestingly I was called a troll for suggesting that every single winning regular must have a webcam up at all times while grinding by someone from eastern europe. Things that make you go hmm.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:23 AM   #287
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
MeleaB,

It's cool that you are invested in this issue but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Here is a post I made in a thread 40 months ago. 40 months ago.



thread here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...sites-1116939/

I did not even get 200k VPPs In 2011 and I left sites with very good rb deals and softer games because of how big of a problem the NLHE bots were. I do not know how to better illustrate the point that 40 months ago it was a huge problem.

They were winning at ~4bb/100 practicing zero game selection at nl1k. They were not colluding. The bots of today are obviously much better than the bats were back then. They do not need to be colluding. They are crushing nlhe across all sites based on intelligence alone nothing to do with colluding.

At the end of 2011, I thought poker stars was the only site that had anti-bot measures in place. At the end of 2012, it was apparent to me that every single site had a serious bot problem.

Interestingly I was called a troll for suggesting that every single winning regular must have a webcam up at all times while grinding by someone from eastern europe. Things that make you go hmm.

These same people will still deny there is a problem and still call you a troll, just as I was when I revealed i was able to sign in to two devices simultaneously on one account. The level of transparency is alarming. With millions of dollars at stake you are going to constantly be outcast by people dependant on these actions for their livlihood. I am given infractions by 2p2 mods for "derailing" for asking Steve of Pokerstars, in this thread , direct questions about bots, in a bot thread. My questions to asteve of Pokerstars, are erased about bots, in a bot thread. Absolute rubbish. And this is a forum for the player? . But before i get another infraction for merely speaking my mind in a "public forum" outside of Nazi Germany, again, can we get a direct statement from Pokerstars regarding bots? As a customer, you have done nothing to actually address anything remotely informative on the actual bot issue such as

How were bots able to continue for over a year with your sophisticated detection system

How did a normal guy with access to a normal database able to find this

What are you doing about refunds for those effected? What about rakes generated by bots are you resistributing those to the effected players? Not only did players lose money to bots but they generated a rake during those hands too. Where is the 1.5 million dollars?

As a player on your site I am not confident now of your ability or motivation to actually protect me from bots given this thread. Can you kindly provide me and my fellow players with an answer to these questions and any others that have been asked in the last 18 pages.

Great, thanks
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:09 AM   #288
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
MeleaB,

It's cool that you are invested in this issue but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Here is a post I made in a thread 40 months ago. 40 months ago.



thread here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...sites-1116939/

I did not even get 200k VPPs In 2011 and I left sites with very good rb deals and softer games because of how big of a problem the NLHE bots were. I do not know how to better illustrate the point that 40 months ago it was a huge problem.

They were winning at ~4bb/100 practicing zero game selection at nl1k. They were not colluding. The bots of today are obviously much better than the bats were back then. They do not need to be colluding. They are crushing nlhe across all sites based on intelligence alone nothing to do with colluding.

At the end of 2011, I thought poker stars was the only site that had anti-bot measures in place. At the end of 2012, it was apparent to me that every single site had a serious bot problem.

Interestingly I was called a troll for suggesting that every single winning regular must have a webcam up at all times while grinding by someone from eastern europe. Things that make you go hmm.
I'm not sure why you have trouble interpreting my stance of this issue. The only way we seem to differ is that I think/hope the colluding aspect is a major influence on the bots' winrate. I know there is already competent bot/AI software around. And, regardless of precisely how capable these current bots are, I know they will be a massive, massive problem for the survival of online poker.

So that you are not confused, let me make it clear that I am in no way downplaying the dangers of bots. To the contrary, I am extremely concerned and I will devote time and energy to do whatever small part I can do in proactively trying to halt their advancement. You clearly feel the same way and so you would do better to focus your efforts on your enemies rather than your allies.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:23 AM   #289
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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To check for collusion I believe its better to look at the observed winrate when 2 or more botters were at the same table. If its 1 bot at a table he is playing with 5 random people on average but is there are 2 bots on the table each one of them is playing with 4 random people and one 7BB winner (the other bot). They should have the observed winrate around 3BB lower when playing with another bot, because we are replacing a random player that has a negative winrate equal to rake in BB with a 7BB winner (another bot).

Shimmy has run preliminary checks on 85k hands sample where the botter played at the same table and they had the observed winrate lower then the usual one and they also ran under EV. So far we have absolutely no reason to believe that collusion took place.
Something for you NLHE guys.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:15 PM   #290
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
A solution was arrived at, and put forward to Stars' upper management. The last information I received was that no decision had yet been made regarding possible implementation.

As far as your reference to Stars allowing bots to keep traffic up, my experience tells me that this is an absurd notion. It is not in their best interests to have bots on their site, regardless if it generates additional rate in the short-term. They are more interested in the longevity of the games. You should know this more than anyone. IIRC, you were the guy who proposed the clever solution to the short stacking issue which Stars adopted, right?

no idea if its strictly -EV to have bots. blowing up traffic is of value and not particularly new. but note the word "assumption" in my post. its a good thing to assume worst case and work from there even if NVG has trouble understanding this.

stars said i was the one coming up with the anti-ratholing solution, so maybe i was. but definitely i like needling them for not giving out information that could lead to solutions for other problems. poker is bigger than stars. they may profit from solutions but if they get in the way of finding solutions they have no place in it.

damage control is a lie ..feel free to prove this wrong.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:31 PM   #291
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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no idea if its strictly -EV to have bots. blowing up traffic is of value and not particularly new. but note the word "assumption" in my post. its a good thing to assume worst case and work from there even if NVG has trouble understanding this.

stars said i was the one coming up with the anti-ratholing solution, so maybe i was. but definitely i like needling them for not giving out information that could lead to solutions for other problems. poker is bigger than stars. they may profit from solutions but if they get in the way of finding solutions they have no place in it.

damage control is a lie ..feel free to prove this wrong.
I think sometimes assuming the worst is actually detrimental as it can detract from focussing on what is the actual issue. I'm all for being open-minded and skeptical, but I'm quite certain Stars don't want bots on their site- both from first-hand face-to-face conversations on the general status of the health of the games with Pokerstars personnel and also from a logically reasoned point of view. So for me, too much time spent suggesting that Stars aren't too concerned with bots isn't helping the issue. (I've also made it clear several times in the past my view that people overestimate the value that grinders offer to Stars these days, and this also applies to bots of course,)
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:44 PM   #292
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Has there been any published analysis of the mathematics of collusion advantage, specifically for PLO?

Would collusion bot developers need to do their own original work on determining the feasibility of pursuing certain draws with specific helpful cards already dead, or has that part been done?

What is the theoretical advantage of 2 (or 3) collusion bots in a 6-max PLO game?
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:18 PM   #293
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Has there been any published analysis of the mathematics of collusion advantage, specifically for PLO?

Would collusion bot developers need to do their own original work on determining the feasibility of pursuing certain draws with specific helpful cards already dead, or has that part been done?

What is the theoretical advantage of 2 (or 3) collusion bots in a 6-max PLO game?
I doubt it, but it should be pretty basic I'd have thought. I'm not a PLO player, but looking at the simple situation of having a flopped FD: Usually a player would have around 36% of hitting- 45 unknown cards, 9 flush cards; 1-((36/45)*(35/44))

With two others colluding with hero, neither of whom was dealt a flush card, the odds of hitting increase by a massive 25%, from 36% to 45%- 37 unknown cards; 1-((28/37)*(27/36))

Like I say, I'm not experienced in PLO, but my guess is that potential edges are significant.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:32 PM   #294
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I found a commercial program that re-calculates equity based on card removal. It is even on the list of "acceptable tools and services", although the required calculations might possibly be done prior to deployment of a PLO collusion bot.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:12 PM   #295
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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I found a commercial program that re-calculates equity based on card removal. It is even on the list of "acceptable tools and services", although the required calculations might possibly be done prior to deployment of a PLO collusion bot.
What you are referring to can run in game and can be used as an engine if you can program.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:21 PM   #296
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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What you are referring to can run in game and can be used as an engine if you can program.
Yes. I know that it can. And maybe Stars would not even flag it as worthy of further screening in a PLO game, since it is on the list of "acceptable tools and services". Anyway, it would probably run inside a virtual machine, with the rest of the collusion bot.

Hence, my suggestion of a locked-down, encrypted, bootable PokerStars Operating System™ that does not allow any programs that are not specifically on a list to run, in conjunction with very terse dealer chat and randomized pixel display for any observers.

Some existing examples are described at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securi...erating_system

Last edited by VP$IP; 06-13-2015 at 03:41 PM. Reason: preaching to the ****ing choir
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:45 PM   #297
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I found a commercial program that re-calculates equity based on card removal.
PokerStove? PokerStove can do this.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:57 PM   #298
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Talking Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Yes. I know that it can. And maybe Stars would not even flag it as worthy of further screening in a PLO game, since it is on the list of "acceptable tools and services". Anyway, it would probably run inside a virtual machine, with the rest of the collusion bot.

Hence, my suggestion of a locked-down, encrypted, bootable PokerStars Operating System that does not allow any programs that are not specifically on a list to run, in conjunction with very terse dealer chat and randomized pixel display for any observers.

Some existing examples are described at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securi...erating_system
Just thinking out loud, without giving it too much serious thought (or expertise of how practical such a solution would be) but I think any hypothetical set-up would have to run alongside a "normal" client for more causal (low volume/low stake) players to use: We want "fun players" to be able to take up the game without having too many obstacles in their way!
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:04 PM   #299
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

hard to think of anything more easy than an operating system on a CD/USB-stick. throw it in your machine and here you go. solves some issues ..but not all. side effect is pretty decent security out of the box if the media is read only.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:26 PM   #300
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

It would be the best security in the industry. Or they could continue fiddle-****ing around for two more years, tops.
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