Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2015, 08:57 AM   #1
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,723
News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Thought this is big enough to warrant a NVG thread, it deserves the attention: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-them-1537778/


The thread actually gets crazier and crazier towards the end. Basically there seems to be/have been a bunch of accounts crushing MSPLO on Pokerstars that are either bots or programs playing but with player inputs into the client.

I've always been on the "lol bots can't beat PLO!" side but the evidence in the thread is pretty damning. They seem to be operating on 888 too. ANd probably every other pokersite there is.

edit: Random image from thread just to bring something quick into this one

Confirmed human MSPLO winners vs suspected+confirmed bot stats, to show their unorthodox/non-human playing style:
("Squared Euclidean distance")


*

Edit/MH: See
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
The "scientific" way of checking how different 2 accounts are from each other is to measure the distance between their respective stats. I did it for 1 banned bot accounts: BOOTTLEGGER, 3 active accounts from my list: IMissFender,Samanta81,SusaaNIN and 4 legit regulars from PL200: N@T@L@T,Shuller_A1t,Nakamator,Bagrovui. I picked those legit accounts because they have played a lot of hands and are mostly Russian.

The stats of banned bots/alleged bots are here http://i57.tinypic.com/2n84qow.png
I entered them into an excel spreadsheet here:


I will not post the stats of legit players to protect their privacy.

Afterwards I have calculated the distance between those 8 accounts mentioned earlier. I have used "Squared Euclidean distance" for it. It can be found here http://i61.tinypic.com/6ell61.png


Thats the distance between following account pairs in form of a graph



The 6 first columns are BOOTLEGGER,Samanta81,IMissFender,SusaaNiN compared in pairs.

The next 6 columns are 4 legit accounts compared in pairs.

The last column is an alleged bot SuSaaNiN compared to legit Russian grinder N@T@L@T.

Small column means small distance, accounts are very similar, big column means the accounts are completely different.

EDIT: I didnt enter more accounts because typing all of it into excel is a huge pain in the ass. I will put all my research on Google Drive on Tuesday and make it free for everyone to download, including the spreadsheet to calculate the difference between any 2 accounts.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 06-10-2015 at 01:09 PM.
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:04 AM   #2
TooRareToDie
banned
 
TooRareToDie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Life-donk
Posts: 4,303
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

The future of online-poker is tournament-poker. Every other format is slowly dying already. Cash-games and SnG's are simply way too static and repetetive to not get destroyed by bots, collusion, or colluding bots.
TooRareToDie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:19 AM   #3
hoopaloopa
old hand
 
hoopaloopa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Learning to fly
Posts: 1,270
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

crazy read, hope they all get banned asap.
hoopaloopa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:42 AM   #4
FWWM
FOOT FF Fristion '15
 
FWWM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Superspreader
Posts: 9,223
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooRareToDie View Post
The future of online-poker is tournament-poker. Every other format is slowly dying already. Cash-games and SnG's are simply way too static and repetetive to not get destroyed by bots, collusion, or colluding bots.
I agree except you're describing more like the present, not the future.
FWWM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:42 AM   #5
bmwteam
veteran
 
bmwteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,430
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

sick if true. Read the all thread and still no sign from Stars rep?!?
I've always thought Stars is the only place with no bots, now there are a ton trustworthy evidences games are full with bots not only in NL games, but in Omaha too..
bmwteam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:46 AM   #6
AnotherMakiavelli
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,322
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

what about smaller sites, for example pokerstars.fr, pokerstars.es?? anyone checking those too? if they have such bots available, they may use it on the other sites too.
AnotherMakiavelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:47 AM   #7
scroosko
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: dancing on the street when ps dies
Posts: 1,177
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopaloopa View Post
crazy read, hope they all get banned asap.
why would stars ban their own bots?
scroosko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 09:55 AM   #8
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,723
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

This post is some crazy **** lol https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=311
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 10:46 AM   #9
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 13,156
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scroosko View Post
why would stars ban their own bots?
As I understand it, the half a dozen PLO bot accounts referred to by OP have been banned by Stars, and (partial?) refunds were given to affected human players.

The problem is, these Russian/Kazakh bots were crushing the game for at least a year and Stars didn't stop them soon enough.
They are likely also crushing on other networks.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 11:47 AM   #10
NerdSuperfly
veteran
 
NerdSuperfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: just shillin', yo
Posts: 2,069
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
As I understand it, the half a dozen PLO bot accounts referred to by OP have been banned by Stars, and (partial?) refunds were given to affected human players.

in the other PLO Bot thread (which Schweins Thread is based on), PS even banned Bots before they send an email. Schwein found also other bots (on FT and 888), which have also been banned before the thread was created.

anyway ... sick bots and great work by Grethe, Oink & Schwein
NerdSuperfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 11:51 AM   #11
Dr.FatCat
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,085
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I've spent over 15min reading that thread but still confused on a lot of things, could someone informed please provide some good cliffs wrt to this topic ?
Dr.FatCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 11:57 AM   #12
sanko33
journeyman
 
sanko33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: malta
Posts: 359
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

following
sanko33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:00 PM   #13
billburr
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 219
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

about how much monies has the the plo ring taken from the micro plo economy?
billburr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:02 PM   #14
DaiLad
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 75
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billburr View Post
about how much monies has the the plo ring taken from the micro plo economy?
Not sure about Micros but these numbers were quoted by OP in the original thread

Thirty five accounts from the botring played a total of 16.6M hands across PS,FTP,888. They made $1.39M net profit and payed an estimated 2.49M in rake (15/c hand). Legit players lost over $3.88M against the bots.
DaiLad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:11 PM   #15
wheatrich
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
wheatrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 21,144
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

bots/collusion and knowing four or more dead cards everyone else doesn't definitely can be more than enough equity wise to beat everyone at the table as you get to see -EV plays that bots would know aren't at the time (and vice versa turning a normal +EV play into dumping it because the other bots have hand or hands that block the normal good one [and reading an opponents hand--well the bot just folded X and another one folded Y so he can't have X or Y in his range...]). It's the biggest reason why online midstakes + will be tough to sustain in that game. Difficult to root it all out especially because you can run like god in that game over a decent sample without being a bot.

Last edited by wheatrich; 06-09-2015 at 12:20 PM.
wheatrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:12 PM   #16
YouAreHappy
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 155
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.FatCat View Post
I've spent over 15min reading that thread but still confused on a lot of things, could someone informed please provide some good cliffs wrt to this topic ?
[ ] Good cliffs
- Lots of suspected accounts have very high winrates with very unorthodox styles, especially 3bet = sqz % and flop cr.
- People are unsure if they are sharing holecards or not.
-
Quote:
35 accounts from the botring played a total of 16.6M hands across PS,FTP,888. They made 1.39M net profit and payed an estimated 2.49M in rake (15/c hand). Legit players lost over 3.88M against the bots. The amount might be higher for 3 reasons. I might have missed some of them. The rake estimate is on the low side. RPTR misses zoom hands and I didnt account for that.
- People throw out random accusations that non bots are bots.
- Some accounts have stopped playing/are banned? while some of the other suspected accounts are still playing.
- Stars are investigating...
YouAreHappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:15 PM   #17
Stinky Stu
Pooh-Bah
 
Stinky Stu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On the back nine.
Posts: 4,190
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

The sites better get their **** in order if poker is going to survive longterm.
Stinky Stu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:39 PM   #18
HH
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,132
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

RIP online Poker
HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 12:42 PM   #19
mecantplay
temp-banned
 
mecantplay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: rarely lucky, jajaja
Posts: 1,526
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I think that some players listed are using some kind of semi-autamitc software to help them with all decisions they make on the table. And that kind of program can be made for STT, MTT, NLHE cash (i expect that this players are more then the PLO one), etc games so all of game at Stars should be efected imo.

I sugest to read the HS PLO thread and to start digging players with similar stats at ur level and its writen how to do it correctly.

All applause goes to Schwein, Oink and Grethe.
mecantplay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:16 PM   #20
Gabethebabe
Malware Jedi
 
Gabethebabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In front of my monitor
Posts: 24,584
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

oh really

bots can hold their own vs the GOAT HU players and someone thinks of abusing this AI and make oodles of money

Everybody that is surprised, please raise your hand
Gabethebabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:26 PM   #21
A_C_Slater
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
A_C_Slater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Beware of microchip vaccine
Posts: 8,109
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Are these short, mid, or full stacking bots?
A_C_Slater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:27 PM   #22
Oink
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Retired
Posts: 10,305
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Full stacks
Oink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #23
WateryBoil
Pooh-Bah
 
WateryBoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: And mine are long and sharp my Lord
Posts: 5,397
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Wowe I bet Pokerstars really cares.


****ing bots would continue on til 2020 if it wasnt for the community DOING THE WORK FOR AMAYA.


Put some more money into your security department instead of into the rat faced owners pockets you ignorant ****s.


Odds that pokerstars even replies to this thread? 50-1?
WateryBoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #24
VP$IP
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VP$IP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zero Millions
Posts: 6,841
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

For those who wish to play along from home:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
How to find bots using your own HEM database, a 3 step guide.

Step 1. Go to opponents tab, filter out for most hands played and sort by postflop Agg %. They should be sitting right next to each other like a big happy family. Anyone with postflop Agg% between 38.5 and 41.5 should be checked manually.

Step 2. Check all the other stats, if c/r flop is really high and equal to c/r turn and 3bet is equal to sqz (wtf?) they are a prime suspect.

Step 3. Ask someone with a Russian PTR account to check for final confirmation.

Bonus step. Go report to PokerStars.
VP$IP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2015, 01:41 PM   #25
jiinkopp
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 139
Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooRareToDie View Post
The future of online-poker is tournament-poker. Every other format is slowly dying already. Cash-games and SnG's are simply way too static and repetetive to not get destroyed by bots, collusion, or colluding bots.
If they can make bots that crush midstakes PLO, what is stopping them from making tournament bots. One of the suspected cheaters samanta81 has almost 200K in tournament earnings...
jiinkopp is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online