not read thread but i like idea's 1) 3) and 4), the rest are unrealistic and never going to happen in a million years (at pokerstars/ftp anyway)

Its nice to have a bit of optimism. Trouble is though whilst I agree regulation in the US has the potential to open up the market to many, many, more rec players who can be persuaded to try the game for real money the experience being offered to them is just not going to keep them playing.

The ROW and the UK in particular have a fully open market with advertising allowed and the experience today is that whilst new players can be tempted in they don't stay and they don't keep depositing. they find the multi tabling bum hunting dominated experience less fun than play money games and they are paying for the less fun!

As this process carries on the potential rec player is being churned, they try it, don't like it, stop and then are far harder to persuade back.

Online poker today is such an efficient churner of new players into dissatisfied punters alienated from the game that if nothing is changed it will not take long to churn through those new US rec players and turn them from potential cash players into ex cash players. Fortunately zoom and the like help a bit but to convert those potential players into long term rec poker players willing to deposit means some restrictions on the unfair, third party, advantages the regs have bought which are making the game so much worse for newbies.

These are not advantages because anyone rec/reg can buy them DUCY?

They should do a better job,of advertising all available tools to everyone tho... This way all the recs at least no about it. Them again if a rev doesn't even no about HEM then they can't get butthurt about something they don't even know exists..

pros do not become pros because they are just born that way because they just wake up and Monday are just awesome poker. No they put in the work the time the effort and then they develop skills to become a pro a fish has the same exact chances of becoming a pro if he put in set: effort but we should not give him any give me or extras because he's too lazy to do so. every person who starts at poker from scratch has the same chance of being great as any other person. if one person ours on more work and becomes better like any other sport or any other skill game well then they deserve the perks. Just like any other sport or SKILL game. You want to change the game for recs. That's wrong imo. The refs don't want red to favor them intact they just want a level playing field aswell. They dot want to change anything. They just want to prevent a stupid change in my opinion. If you want to be better at poker you don't handicapped all the competition around you.... you take the available steps which are available to you just like a Reg and you make yourself better at poker stop being so lazy..

That's like saying you want to mix the Special Olympics with the regular Olympics then making the games easier on the special ones...

No... Thats what home games online and live are for. So have the site allow how games so fish can at who ever they choose but leave The rest alone

poker is a skill game and it needs to stay a skill game once you make it no longer a skill game well then you're just internet gambling and last time I checked that's illegal.....

Poker is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. HUDs take the fun out of the game and turn it into a math problem. Most normal people hate math.

/End thread?

Poker is a skill game...


FYP

Game is a war. War is not fun. Winning war is pleasure.
Leave "fun" for drunks,kids and sick gamblers

Only the ones that intend to steal everything at some point. Legit sites only make money from raked hands. DUCY?

I can't say you're wrong for one important reason. You're right!

Right on. That's why turning online "poker" into something closely resembling B&M poker would be more likely to grow the player base.

Poker is a skill game but online "poker" is a techno-game where the savvy shear all the sheep -- and by extension run them out of the room.

Tell me, where's the skill in reading numbers off a HUD or looking up somebody on Sharkscope?

Online "poker" is to poker what a fishing trawler is to a fly fisherman. Sure, they're both fishing but...

This.

For all the 20 something grinders that have a HUD, Sharkscope, and other software tools, that doesn't mean you have more "skill". Nor does it mean that you understand the maths. Cmon, many of you dropped out of College and HS and struggle with long division. Reading books on Game Theory simply compensates for your lack of education. Its a great discussion point when you are playing Beer Pong.

Its like a carpenter who can create beautiful hand made furniture with hand tools, versus another one who has to rely on machines and power equipment. The second guy can churn stuff out cheaper and faster. But who has more "skill"? If you take away all the power tools and machines from the second guy, can he really hack it with his hands? The machines do all of his precise measurements and cuts. He can't do bleep! He will have to re-learn much of his craft. And he may not be up to it.

That is what is going on in this thread. You grinders are pi$$ed because the handwriting is on the wall for you. The Wild West days are over. When you take away all the software and tools from the grinders who churn out 12-24 tables what will happen? When you have to rely on memory and a thought process, many of you are going to fall on your faces. And you know it. You want to be Cates, Lew, etc but that dream is dead kids. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Nobody cares about you depositing the $50 bucks Mommy gave you for Christmas so you can grind your way to the nosebleeds in a year or two. That was all BS anyway. As Alan Lawhon states, Gary Loveman (and others) wants that demographic with the disposable income. And it aint you! The rules will cater to that player.

Then use your smarts to beat poker... Im sorry you can't beat games live or online... But if others can that means there just better at it.... If u think dropping the HUD will all of a sudden make u a Winning player then your in for a surprise.. U don't lose at poker cause others have a HUD. You lose for reasons the are with.in yourself. You can opt out of scope and you can get a HUD yourself.... Stop blaming others for your shortcomings. Adapt and win yourself, stay a fish, or gtfo. No one is making you donate to the poker economy your choosing to. If your talents lie elsewhere then go elsewhere. Fwiw 90 percent of all players live and online lose so the ten percent that make money don't punish them embrace and or emulate them if you want there lifestyle. But it's not going to be given to you.

Every pool and chess player isnt paid everytime they play even if there bad. they don't make a salary that's what's jobs are for. Only the best rise to the top anfake.money. Only the best win the tournaments.

Your crahzy if u think any of these changes will all of a sidebar you win.

Do u think these Winning players just sit around for 2 hours a week pressing buttons like you making all this money. No they do not. They play in study for upwards of 60 hours a week or more and work their asses off for what they get why don't you try that instead of wining like a beeotch

online poker is just a different games in live poker plain and simple. You have to have hhs to make sure that you're not being cheated and to make sure the all the possible to the proper way. If you have hand historys you going to have huds there is no way around it. you cannot have one without the other it's impossible so get over it there not going anywhere no matter how much you cry..


You act like if you u sat against elky or randy lew with out HUD you would then win...


News flash u won't...

The thread isn't about winning or losing -- or crying -- it's about how to attract more REC players to the game -- see OP.

One thing is for sure, the REC players aren't going to go where they feel they have no chance of winning. They can be fish but they will still come and play if they think the game offers an honest, level playing field. Online "poker" doesn't -- but it could.

You're demonstrably, empirically verifiably wrong. Why? There is such a site: pkr.com. Features of this site:

- No more than 6 tabling is possible, and even that is more or less impossible due to the software;
- PT4 doesn't work, and for a long time HEM didn't work (not sure if it does now);
- Everyone has an animated avatar that can be made to look like them;
- You can adopt a personal point of view if you like;
- You need to click on hole cards to look at them;
- They have a range of new to the game tables.

Let's see, what's PKR's traffic like? Oh yeah, right now they have 386 cash game players, compared to nearly 27000 at Stars which has no animations, mass multitablers, all HUDs work, etc. Both you and DUCY are fundamentally misunderstanding what recreational players want- and I feel well placed to say, as I fit a lot of the characteristics of a recreational player (have never withdrawn, have full time job so mainly play weekends, often play while watching TV at the same time, have never played above NL10, etc).

- Recreational players don't want to feel like it's pure luck. I can't imagine anything duller than playing roulette. Frankly, I could easily be playing online bridge instead- lots of interesting skill.
- Hand histories are fine. When you play chess, you write the moves down. Why would you not do the same with poker?
- Multitabling is mainly because only playing 1 table is really dull. Not enough hands. I've never understood the refrain that recreational players want to play few tables (obviously, excluding Zoom/Rush).
- Liquidity is really important. No point in showing up to a site where no-one's playing the game you want to play. People who care about cash may want to wait for a game- recreational players don't. That's why player pool segregation is a terrible idea: people won't be able to get a game that they want. ARJEL is busy finding this out.
- Chat is good. I find it a bit sad that 3-4 years ago, people would talk at tables, but now that almost never happens. Maybe it's because over half the players are from the former USSR and don't speak English.
- Bonuses are good. Small but frequent, and designed to encourage play.

TBH, I think that a lot of the current moribund state of games is because of the draining of international liquidity, with no players around from the US/ Spain/ France/ Italy. Was definitely more fun with all those guys around. When/ if those markets reopen it'll improve a lot, and if China ever opens, there'll be a new halcyon era.

I actually think that what FTP is doing is pretty solid with regards to keeping recreational players involved- new to the game tables (which are astonishingly soft), named tournaments, lots of little bonuses that aren't dependent on high volume. But they're still suffering from a lack of liquidity, and that's hard to get around.

Your orange done crossed paths with my apple. I said the online game needs to be like the B&M game to attract the REC players. Hence, no multi-tabling (not 6 maybe).

I could go on but maybe you get the idea. (Or, you could read my post #55.)

(demonstrably, empirically, verifiably - )

It is honest and level... only way it wouldn't be would be at the services were only provided to certain people which is not the case they provided to everyone

In other words, everyone just needs to become a fishing trawler.

Maybe I'm just too much a purist or traditionalist. My idea of poker is: if Wild Bill Hickok couldn't play it, then it isn't poker.

I want to play poker -- and I think most RECs would, too.

That's just a reference to time. Do you really think if wild bill had tools to gain edge he would ingnore them and protest in hopes for change, or use them to his advantage?


He probably couldn't even turn on a comp does that mean we shouldn't play online at all? If you want a live game just play live. There 2 separate games and always will be.

I can't understand why people are again arguing about HUD's with people that dont understand what they are.

This is interesting and would appeal to RECs.

I looked at this issue with SNGs. At the lower levels you have to have an extremely high percentage of wins to overcome the rake. 2nd and 3rd doesn't cut it, but that is another issue. But I hear what you are saying on the rake.

Are you aware of the existence of bodog poker? If not, check it out. Many your dreams have come true. No HUD, no bum hunting, etc. Most of the "rec players will love this" stuff has been implemented. Also check out euro-sites where you could change SNs all the time and those of us who played on Cake where HUDs were illegal (where we played against people with illegal HUDs as people suggested to you would happen).

Most of your ideas have been implemented. It wasn't the rec player heaven you imagine.

You keep saying this stuff must be done for the good of the game. It has been done. It wasn't good.

It just bugs me that when a reg posts there told that's not what the thread is for.. But the fish can call us uneducated neanderthals and it goes ingnored. U can't set up a debate then cast out all opposing thoughts..



I do agree that the problem lies in the take amount not in software...

I could see why people might not want HUDs to be allowed. But most of the arguments about HUDs in this thread have been pretty stupid. Perhaps largely because people don't seem to know what they are or what they can do as Testi has already stated:


But I don't get the "no multitabling" part. There is even some multitabling in live casinos now. I wouldn't want to be limited to one table online and metaphorically watch paint dry as I only get 75ish hands an hour or whatever when I could be getting 600 to 700 hands an hour.


Also, this is just pretty arbitrary. Why is poker whatever was available and called poker while that guy was alive?

No, I am putting out the premise that the way online poker will survive and thrive in the new regulatory environment is

1- by appealing to the REC player and not to REG grinders.

2-I am examining and getting opinions on how sites can best attract and retain that REC player.

3- I am starting to postulate (not yet) that unless sites are willing to significantly change there online rules, they will not be able to attract or retain that player.