no question at all... its money owed, plain and simple. FTP is not licensed as a bank o financial institution and can't take deposits to hold in someone elses name.

what word? ftp hasn't said jack to us in a month.

I agree in the sense that the argument that the DOJ didn't seize anything and the funds are only temporarily encumbered is bunk. The DOJ took the funds. theyre going to keep them.

That said, i do not agree that the blame here rests with anyone but FTP. Whether you agree with the UIGEA, the banking laws that FTP is accused of violating, and the DOJ's enforcement actions or not, this eventuality was easily foreseeable and yes, FTP did have a duty to its players to take reasonable precautions to hold their balances in such a way as to keep them secure against any legal action.

Its possible -- stars did it. We don't know how secure the funds were when FTPdoug told us they were segregated in 2008, but we know that theyre not segregated any more and therefore less secure than they were.

The DOJ action against FTP was many things -- including unjust. But it was not unforeseeable. And it was 100% because of the way FTP held player balances that the players have no remedy against the DOJ. Th funds were in FTPs operational accounts, and they belonged to FTP. That makes the players with balances unsecured creditors, and specifically disqualifies them from filing as claimants to the money held in the civil asset forfeiture case.

You want to fight the DOJ in court - great. But youll lose for sure. WIthout even considering the issue of innocent ownership, you can't prove ownership of the seized funds at all. Can i ask how you would even go about it? Are you seriously planning to walk into federal court with a screenshot of your cashier? All you can prove is you had an FTP balance and therefore ftp owes you money.

true. but when an "ftp source" tells subject poker that their funds got unfrozen by the doj, thats a sort of communication. They know its going to get back to the players. In the same sense, when ftp lawyers leak a story to the LA times, thats a kind of communication.

The fact that theyre communicating through press leaks rather than directly is a great reason to doubt their credibility.

I was just going to post to say what it turns out Skallagrim has already said.

+1 to all of his posts.

While I am here, though, let me just say that Todd Terry, Nick Hammer, Steve Segal and Robin Hougdahl are all idiot life fish who do not understand that their lawsuit can only possibly be -EV.

Way to get leveled by some shyster lawyers, you tools.

Whatever deal the DOJ make with either FTP as we now know it, or the new "investor/owner(s)" does not necessarily have to include repayment of US players. You can be sure that Bitar's primary agenda is to 1) stay out of jail and 2) not lose every thing he owns. In 3rd place would be salvaging some future income from whatever minority(?) interest he may still own in what we now call FTP. Now other unindicted owners of FTP have a similar agenda, but the order of priority is a little different. Finally, any new investors have to be assured that they are not buying "air", that is, their investment is unemcumbered and safe.


FTP paying US players, a purported $150mm, is not their priority, no matter what they claim. They know darn well that the vast majority of those US customers will never play on FTP again, at least not in the near future...so it would be pretty much like donating to charity. Would it help their international "reputation"? Probably somewhat, but seriously any player with a clue is already aware of all their "missteps" and should proceed with extreme caution if ANY of the previous owners are still involved.

The point is, just because FTP, and any leaks they put out there, SAY they are working to pay back US players, does not mean they will do so. The same goes for the possible new investors. The DOJ has no obligation to worry about US players. If this suit holds a place in line, via a creditors status, (and assuming it CAN be dismissed if the plaintiffs choose to do so), I think it's a good thing.


p.s. Why is a monkey account(OP) posting this instead of TT? And how relevant is it that it was filed on midnight June 30, same day as investors (combo Party/Binion?) are possibly inking a deal?

LOL at ur avatar.
I tried to kill that thing and started thinking it was inside my screen before i realized what it really was...

Why is Matusow on that list but Durrr isn't?

While I understand where you are coming from, I have to say that FTP et al should be shouldering ~90% of the blame, not the DOJ.
Remove the UIGEA completely from the equation, and consider the other alleged OVERT illegal acts stated in the indictments. You think the bank fraud/wire fraud /money laundering case is also no reason to expect repercussions? If you blame the fact that the sites bribed bank officials and, via several layers, tried to illegally acquire a US bank, on the fact that they "had to do it" because the UIGEA made them, then please point me to the law that allows the "end justifies the means" defense.
Aside from what we have read in the unsealed parts of the indictments, I'm pretty sure there is a whole ****load of acts pulled that we are not yet privy too.
Don't misunderstand ... I have loved playing on FTP and PS (never tried UB/AP), but they had to know this could happen, and the more slack they were given, the farther they ran with the line. FTP "borrowed/used" your money without asking you. THATS WHY we are out $150mm, not because of the DOJ. Don't shoot the messenger.

>

SO whats the alternative strategy? Sit quietly with their hands folded and wait obediently and patiently for FTP to make good on their debt. You can see how that might not be appealing to many people, ev aside.

While players are doing this, FTP has very little incentive to pay back US players (or anyone else now i guess).

also, ftr, i think its great that there is finally action against the "prowners" of ftp.

They sold everyone a bill of goods for years, and they 100% deserve to held responsible for their company's theft.

you kind of skipped a couple steps there.

for one thing, the defendants have to be found and served.

Any defense attorney with a brain will say that the damages are mearly lost interest on the balance due. If you are late on a payment, you pay interest. The going rates on interest suck so that would be a manageable number, say 1.5% of 150 mill, then tripled.

I was a little surprised that the suit didnt include paying for ftp points and iron man points.

Yeah, what are they going to do? Leave their house and never go back? Oh, and never play in a poker tourney again. You really think ivey, lederer, harmon et al are just gonna move to some country with no extradition?

RICO treble damages are punitive, not compensatory, so that argument wouldnt hold water.

(actually, i take that back -- the trebled compensatory damages are not technically considered punitive -- but they are not compensatory either. That is to say, if your damages are $1k, you can sue for $3k under the triple damages clause without showing 2K in aditional real damages. Regardless, the 1K isnt tripled to compensate the plaintiff for actual loss)

You do realize that todd terry is a lawyer, don't you?

There are two viable strategies far superior to a class action lawsuit--filing a claim against the seized funds and forcing an involuntary bankruptcy.

The main problem with the class action lawsuit is that the only people who ever recover anything of value in a class action are the plaintiffs' lawyers.

legal fees in class action cases are typically awarded at about 22% of the settlement amount. so if you assume that this case nets a settlement of $50 million, the plaintiffs lawyers would expect to get ~$11 million plus expenses. call that $12 million. This leaves players receiving $38 million, or a bit over 25 cents on the dollar. moreover, we receive the money, oh, say, 4 years from now.

The fact that these plaintiffs think that a maximum of 25 cents on the dollar something like 4 years from now is the most +EV way to proceed basically means that they are hopelessly moronic.

Would you sell the money in your FT account for 25 cents on the dollar to be paid 4 years from now? lol, if so, pm me, please.

The triple part is punitive, but the actual damages have to be established. If they never pay, sure the damge is the whole amount. But if they pay us all back next week then the rico piece could still stand but the damages would only be foregone interest.

So? You think that being a lawyer makes a person incapable of being a blundering fool? LOL, in the 12 years I practiced MOST lawyers I met were blundering fools.

lol

could you say the same for doctors and such?

IIRC Todd Terry is a lawyer and went to Harvard or something like that. And he def doesn't come across like the kind of guy to get leveled by anybody.

So if full tilt fails to gain investment and goes into liquidation, this lawsuit effectively makes it a higher priority to pay US players + tripple damages before the rest of the world gets paid their balances?
or more to the point
US x3 > DOJ > Rest of World?

Your statement would be correct outside the context of RICO. RICO is a statute specifically designed to punish bad behavior, whether in the civil or the criminal context, and its provisions are particularly draconian by design. By alleging fraud under RICO the plaintiff's are saying the predicate bad acts have already occurred and the defendants deserve to be punished for those acts. Mere repayment would, in that context alone, only be mitigating, not deciding, on the issue.

That said, the issue would still be the subject of argument and litigation. My point is merely that a potential investor/buyer will be deterred by that fact. I posted only to suggest that it is therefore in the interest of all players that the plaintiffs in this action make clear, and make clear ONLY to a potential buyer/investor, that that particular claim for triple damages would not be pursued against a buyer/investor who otherwise agrees to make certain all players are repaid in full.

Skallagrim

QuadJacks has on Andrew a Forensic Accountant who is breaking down what this lawsuit means and Karak from 2p2, very informative discussion for those interested.