They should sue the DOJ.

How ironic there were no victims until the DOJ stepped in. Sure FTP was run as a personal ATM machine for its shareholders but without this so-called "justice", most of us would be a lot better off.

Imagine an (unlikely) situation where the DOJ indictment goes all the way through the courts, without any settlement, and huge fines are imposed which FTP and its officers cannot afford to pay. Then this lawsuit might protect the US customer money from getting consumed in the fines (basically "it's not our fault, we're victims of these criminals too, and that's our money"). Otherwise it doesn't really have any effect. Does that make any sense?

As has been said before, shell games can be seen through. A lot of people seem to think that legal fiction has the magic property of removing the court's common sense.

People used to think that having Full Tilt pay most of its income as a software royalty was a clever trick that would protect the owners of that "software company" from prosecution. Now people think that the owners raiding the company by issuing excessive dividends to themselves are likewise getting off scot-free. Not so fast, I suspect.

We don't even know if there is a "sale" of FTP or what conditions were placed on the pending sale by the investors. FTP is still probably going to have to settle with the DOJ before any investors are going to any money up. Who knows if they DOJ will give the investors the all clear or not. For all we know there is no deal, if there is one, it may never be finalized.

How long are we supposed to wait for our money before someone takes action? Now that FTP isn't even serving the rest of the world maybe non-US players have to start worrying if they'll ever get paid.

While it unlikely players will be made whole by this or any other suit because FTP just doesn't have the money its better then waiting for some miracle investor to show up and buy FTP. Once every other creditor and the DOJ gets done with FTP there might not be much left for players but it better then what we have now.

If this suit were simply a suit for the return of player funds there would be nothing to really be concerned about, and, in fact, a lot to applaud. There is no legal question whatsoever that FTP owes the players their money and having a court judgment to that effect has some value. This is especially so if FTP is unwilling, rather than merely unable, to pay. A judgment also has value if FTP goes belly-up and is liquidated through bankruptcy proceedings (folks with a court judgment can eventually get a lien on assets that puts them ahead of other unsecured creditors in terms of the order in which creditors get paid - at least under US bankruptcy law, not sure about Ireland).

But the inclusion of the RICO allegations and the request for triple damages, especially as part of a class action, does have the potential to cause harm. That part of the case is, as a technical legal matter, independent from the simple fact that FTP has not paid players and would not automatically become moot if FTP did pay players. Usually in cases like this those kind of allegations are thrown in as a way of gaining leverage for eventual settlement and so I am not critical of the fact that they were included (though they will be very difficult to prove, as will proving facts sufficient to make the individuals, rather than the corporation itself, liable).

But now that we have some credible indications that FTP is shopping its assets to investors, ostensibly for the purpose of raising the money to pay players, the existence of a potential class action suit with RICO triple damages is a fact no investor can outright ignore and so may make the sale of FTP or its assets less likely.

I would hope, especially since Todd Terry is one of the plaintiffs, that the plaintiffs or their lawyer would openly confirm that if FTP (or a buyer of FTP) pays the players the full amount of what they are owed, the WHOLE lawsuit would be dismissed.

Skallagrim

Good points Nova. If you don't believe that the alleged sale of FTP is real or likely to close, then this lawsuit is appropriate. But shouldn't it be filed in Ireland or Aldernay where FTP has assets?

Fulltilt have sent me emails every day for 5 years,but didnt send one explaining their current situation.So i thought i would ask them but the email came back as unknown.
If they had any intention of continuing in the online poker industry they would have atlest left the email accounts open even if they didnt answer.......lights are out and the doors closed.

*Speculating* I wonder if FTP knew this suit was coming, Now like they did after Ivey filed his lawsuit FTP will say the deal is off and the investors were ready to sign the finial paperwork but this suit ****ed it all up.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,6054543.story

Sounds a bit funny that FTP lawyers said this but that "The attorneys spoke anonymously because of the sensitivity of ongoing negotiations with the federal prosecutors in Manhattan who brought the charges." IF the deal is so sensitive and isn't finial then why would FTP attorneys mention it at all?

Maybe the source for the LA Times is FTP? If we hear all of the sudden the investors have pulled-out and this suit is the reason then I doubt there was ever a deal with investors and it was just FTP putting out **** in the press to make it look like there was.

Ostensibly, the damages, even for the RICO claim, are the lack of payment to the US players. If the US players are allowed to withdrawal funds, then what are the damages? I believe someone said it before, the suit would be moot. Just certifying the class can take an absurdly long time.

I don't think this will cause much concern or be a deal breaker for any investor - a sophisticated investor would have to know this was a possibility. Its so obvious - any advisor to the investor who hasn't mentioned this possibility committed malpractice.

The only problem I see are the Plaintiffs' lawyers - they'll want to be paid now.

Isn't requesting treble damages in a situation like this a) very standard and b) necessary to provide leverage in any settlement talks?

In a situation like this it is normal/sensible to take the phones off the hook, send the staff home, and lock the doors. There's nothing worse than having offices full of staff mooching about with nothing to do but wind each other up and leak misinformation.

It seems brutal but it's the kindest thing to do for everyone - staff and customers alike. If nothing can be done, it's far better to shut down completely until the situation changes.

I agree; most class actions are settled in this case (that was the settlement in the EA/Madden exclusivity anti-trust case, where players/rival companies/retailers alleged EA gouged on Madden pricing after obtaining the exclusive license to be the official NFL game. More info here).

It's like any negotiation. You have a number, and aim 2-3 times the size of that number, knowing you fully won't get it 95% of the time, but that you'll often be offered a settlement for 1/2-1/3 of that aimed amount.

It's like value betting for law donks :P

BTW, FTP is on Deadly Ground? Why? Because Steven Segal is on this suit, and he is Out for Justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMu2xNBpyQc

For me its pretty clear the source of the article is Full Tilt's Lawyers, who based on the Clonie suit are in Los Angeles.

This last line of the story:
At the time the story first ran, googling "full tilt sale" only resulted in that relevant story. IMO this was fed to the writer directly from their attorneys .

It doesn't quite work that way, which is why I raised the issue. The RICO count seeks (and under RICO law this is allowed) TRIPLE damages. The claim is that FTP has already committed the bad acts. So if FTP paid every penny it owes to players and does that tomorrow, the action for the other 2/3rds would still exist. As would the claim, as you mention, of attorneys fees - but those are pretty small when compared to roughly 150 million in actual damages and another 300 million in enhanced RICO damages.

Skallagrim

Yeah, but isn't the whole point of that so whoever takes over FTP agrees to a settlement ensuring everyone is paid 100%? Like, treble damages are all about the leverage here, just as in any other applicable tort action.

I'm genuinely asking and not trying to be critical.

Exactly what happened to BoDog a few years ago when they lost their domain.

Yes.

In fact I thought that what was I said in my post.

And it wouldn't even be a concern if it were not for the rumors that FTP is shopping for buyers/investors. If FTP is truly shopping for buyers/investors (and truly needs them - admittedly none of us know anything here for certain) then the existence of a RICO triple damages class action is another real concern for any buyer/investor.

So I just think it would be in the best interest of ALL players (and I feel pretty confident that at least Todd Terry is concerned with the interests of ALL players) if the plaintiffs here use that leverage openly and immediately by indicating to any potential buyer or investor of FTP that if FTP and/or the buyer/investor promptly pays players in full, the RICO count will be dropped too.

I am not even remotely suggesting that anything should be said beyond that, nor that anything should be dropped until all players are paid. Just that potential buyers/investors can and should be made aware that this suit will not harm them IF they pay the players as part of a deal.

Skallagrim

PPA has nothing to do with this nor are my statements anything other than my statements.

Quite frankly I am glad to see folks taking action to protect their money. i just don't want that action to somehow make getting players their money any harder.

Skallagrim

The investors' due diligence would require FTP to declare claims against them, and no doubt their lawyers would understand the implications.

I don't know what people think the process of buying a big company or making a large investment is like - but it's not a matter of just walking up and saying "here's some money, where do I sign".

I am not sure why I am confusing you since I am agreeing with what you are saying. Perhaps my last post cleared it up. If not:

If I am going to buy FTP and part of that deal is paying back all players, I do NOT want to risk a lawsuit that may later force me to pay US players (or most US players) 3 times what they are actually owed. It may well mean that I do not make the deal until I have assurance that such a thing will not occur. So I think it is best that the plaintiffs in this lawsuit say something like that openly; something like "if a new buyer of FTP pays back all players in full we will drop the suit against FTP and/or the new buyer."

Skallagrim

dude, enough already. Do you work for the DOJ/IRS, or does a relative of yours?

Technically, no, the DOJ didn't seize anything; however, they froze many bank accounts belonging to FT or related entities and will seize them to satisfy judgment if they win their case. You know this, yet you make no effort to correct the fail you're so offended about. You make quasi-legal pronouncements in many of your posts with an air of certainty, but you've said you're not a lawyer. I'm not even sure you have any money locked up on FT. What I am sure of is that you advocate a position placing 100% of the blame for the current situation on FTP while ignoring the ambiguities of the UIGEA or questioning the motivations of the DOJ, let alone acknowledging that this case is an absurd abridgement of Americans' personal freedoms (at least in 45 of the 50 states).

Give it a rest.

is it 100% for sure in a case like this that the players funds would be considered unsecured credit?

I'd say we take the $150 million and split it evenly amongst all currently registered FTP players...lol

Yet once verifiable word of serious negotiations emerged, they rushed to file their claim.

Alderney applied substantial and sufficient pressure on FTP to sell by suspending their license. If you believe deuc3s, FTP was given an or-else deadline at the start of the month. If they thought it wasn't a hard deadline, well, Alderney smacked that idea right out of their heads yesterday, and lo and behold, the *******s holding up the deal because they didn't want to give up their ownership stakes (I'm lookin at you, Ray Biteme) promptly conceded, since any size stake of a non-operating poker site isn't worth much.

People itt are saying that Todd Terry is a lawyer. I'm not at all surprised to hear that, because all this is is ambulance-chasing, demonstrated imo by the claim for treble damages and using the RICO statutes.

This, and you have to keep in mind that FTP has already fed false information to the press once already -- the 40M the doj "unfroze."

It really blows my mind that people are still ready to take ftp at their word after all that has gone down.