I guess I sort of understand the rationale behind not wanting to scare the very lowest stake pool with bomb pots, but up here in the PNW we have Big O double board bomb pots ("5-2-2") all the way down to 1/2 and it is wildly popular. It's also having the effect of teaching Omaha to a wider audience and slowly growing that pool for the future, which I think is important. Besides, when there is one winner per board, it gives the fun player a chance to grab half the pot even if they're not great at Omaha/Big O, since scoops are reasonably rare. People who are 100% sure they don't like bomb pots simply sit out the hand, no big deal.

This structure is a big problem. You literally have no game for the average 2/5 player (ie the type of player that is used to playing 2/5 Bellagio, 2/5 Aria, or the old 2/5 Winstar game).

There are a good number of low stakes players that don't want to play in an uncapped game. At the same time, if they've been playing 2/5 for a decade, they certainly have no interest in playing 1/2.

Btw, I suspect the bomb pot situation is a bit more complicated than presented here. I suspect there are a sizeable number of 2/5 players that don't want to play bomb pots and a sizeable number of 1/3 players that would be happy to play bomb pots. I read previously that the opens at the 1/3 and 2/5 are the same. Maybe at times, but overall I'm not buying that. I've seen TCH Dallas 2/5 play like a normal 2/5 game and I've seen it play like a large T/20 game. The 5/T, T/20, and 25/50 players that can make a game play huge will always choose to play 2/5 over 1/3 regardless of bomb pots. Most of the big money rec players and the pros with big bankrolls will choose 2/5 over 1/3 as well.

If the players absolutely must have two match stack games (which seems crazy for "low stakes") then hopefully you generate enough business that you can add another level, maybe 2/3 or 5/5 or 2/5/10, so that you can better accommodate the entire player pool

BTW from what I've seen, 1/2 players love partaking in double board bomb pots more than anyone, but they are of the NL variety rather than PLO.

This is probably fair. I'm coming down for the January meetup week and haven't decided whether I'm playing 1/3 or 2/5 yet. My ideal game is 2/5 with 1k max (no match) + bomb pots.

The typical 1/3 game has opens from $15-20. There are always a couple players with stacks <$1k, a larger share of players with stacks $1-2k, and a couple players with stacks north of $2k. It isn't unusual to have two players with stacks >$5k.

The games are always amazing with many action players and few pros. I don't know why anyone would prefer a capped 2/5 to this game.

Then those players shouldn't come to Austin, Texas. None of the rooms support a regular capped midstakes game. Almost all the local players prefer the match structure. You can see for yourself on pokeratlas.

The capped $1/$3 at Lodge almost never runs. It does add a layer of confusion when you enter the room and they ask which list you want to be added to, and one game never starts.

When Andrew/Brad do eventually have their meetup games, it will be interesting to see if they make a capped or match structure for the out-of-towners.

Size of game depends on frequency of straddles/double straddles. Not possible to tell until you arrive at the room and see who's playing. I've played at 1/3 games that play as big as T/20. Totally depends.

Def true that when both 2/5 and 1/3 run, the big money action players will gravitate to the 2/5. And that game will have more double/triple straddles.

There are varied opinions on the bomb pots.

I will say that TCH Austin has cornered the market on LLSNL players who like bomb pots (especially PLO) and don't want to play Lodge $1/$2. I went earlier this week and they had a round-and-round with round of PLO bomb ($5 ante) and round of hold 'em. This was in the early afternoon. Floor manager bragged to me that the game runs regularly. TCH Austin lists their 1/2 game as "1/2 NLH w. Bomb Pots" on pokeratlas. I think NL vs PLO bomb is dealer's choice but almost everyone picks PLO.

Frankly, if Lodge wants to convince any of the 1/2 TCH regs to switch clubs they'll have to change their policy and allow Bomb Pot tables at 1/2.

Not saying the above is a smart idea -- there are arguments against allowing bomb pots at 1/2, and Lodge's mngmt probably knows more than I do. Some players do really hate them.

The player base is already fragmented enough as it is between 1/3 match and 2/5 match. Can't see a lower game running since everyone wants match the stack in Austin. Don't think there is room for a game inbetween 1/3 and 2/5 (those play similarly enough anyway, the only difference is the bomb pot policy at Lodge).

Where do you mainly play out of? I would say the majority of players in Austin who are pro-bomb prefer PLO bomb to NL bomb (all double board of course). Just based off of conversations at the table. And when it’s dealer’s choice, PLO bomb gets picked > 8 times out of 10.

Collusion and fairness concerns aside, I played multiple bomb pots at 2/5 NL at Bellagio this summer when out in Vegas for the series. Not sure about official policy but it definitely happened and nobody raised any sort of fuss about it.

What's the deal with the $1/2 ($5 bring in) structure for PLO? Seems to have picked up a lot of momentum and is definitely the most common structure for PLO in Austin. I understand not fixing what isn't broken, that said it's a really nonsensical blind structure.

The game doesn't "play like" $1/2 given you can pot preflop to $15 and straddle to $10. Why not just do away with the $1 chips and make it $5/5 with $200->match buy-in? I would rather play a single $5 big blind (pot would still be $15) than $1/2 where the $2bb is barely any discount to a $15 open.

Would likely only lead to scaring away recs in practice and I'm an idiot but I think appetite for PLO is growing and could use a better structure.

That would be a tiny open for 2/5, more resembling some of the smallest 2/5 games in the country like Bellagio 2/5. Those opens are similar to what I'd expect at TCH Dallas 1/2.

Not everyone goes to the poker room for the same reason as you. Sure everyone likes to win, but most players are there to have fun. The average rec player wants to be able to relax and play the game they are comfortable with. If, as an example, you get some maniac that comes in and starts shoving a few thousand dollars every hand preflop, that game is highly profitable but it's not what the players signed up for and a lot of recreational players will not be happy in such a game and certainly wouldn't want to play in a game like that day in and day out. In a game like that, they'd be forced to play tighter and none of these players, especially in Texas, want to play tight. A good number of them probably want to play every hand.


If they have a problem with it, I seriously doubt you are the person they complain to though.


I've heard this so many times over the years about games playing like T/20 but then I wonder if those players have actually played much T/20 to know the difference. That being said, perhaps the 1/3 can play like T/20 but it takes more than straddling to $20 to make a game truly play like a T/20.


Dallas. The problem with the PLO bomb pots and the reason I assume the Lodge doesn't allow them at 1/2 is because a lot of players don't know how to play PLO. 1/2 is supposed to be a introductory game for beginning level players. The worst thing that can happen is a new player loses everything he has playing a game that he really has no business playing.

My only experience with Casino 2/5 is Parx 2/5 (2019) and Oaks Club 2/3/5 (2018) in Emeryville. Both games were $1k cap IIRC. Standard opens were to $20. Any Texas 1/3 is gonna be “bigger” than those games because more players are calling opens wide and so typical pots are multi-way, and more importantly, stack sizes are much greater. You end up with a bigger pot on the flop and much deeper stacks. Just a more +EV spot.

I don’t necessarily agree that in a very loose game you want to play tighter though I do hear that a lot on the strategy forums. Quibbles aside, you may be right. It will be interesting to see if the 2/5 meetup games at the end of this month are capped.

Generally, I hate capped games. But I admit I’m biased. And I am not representative of the typical poker tourist that the Lodge hopes to attract with their new business model.



Depends how you measure size of a game. Are you thinking in terms of a good (top 5%) player’s hourly, or a the average size of a pot?

I used to play the Parx T/T whenever it would run. That is often the biggest NL game in that room. I think Lodge 1/3 match is frequently “comparable in size” to that game, however you define the comparison.


Very true. PLO bomb pots break rolls.

Sure, that's not surprising. I'd actually expect the 1/3 to play similar to some casino 2/5s even if it didn't have a match stack option. However, in general I'd expect the 2/5 match stack at the Lodge to play much play bigger than the 1/3. I'm sure there are times when that may not be the case though.

I'm not talking strategy. I'm talking about an average rec player that brings X amount of dollars to the poker room to have fun. Playing 3 hands and having to go home is not fun. It's also not good for the poker room that gets paid by the hour.

Average size if avg is the mean and not necessarily the median or mode. In a T/20 game you're gonna have players (both pros and recs) who are fearless with deep pockets. ie the types that can bluff away a $5k buyin and just reload without batting an eye.

5 Bart Hansons in a room are better than 1 euro

I've never played with Bart Hanson so I can't say, but I have played with several Euros who i've found to be quite friendly at the poker table. Heck, there was even one that TCH promoted a decent amount on their stream so I guess someone liked him.

What you're saying doesn't make sense
Home game rakes are almost always a lot higher than casino rakes
People aren't leaving casino games bc of take they're leaving casino games bc of convenience when the casino is far away,for better action and a better atmosphere.

Hi Doug:

I'll try to answer your questions as best I can. But keep in mind, and this goes for everyone reading this, that what I say are my opinions even though I do think they are almost always correct.

The balance of luck and skill is clearly the most important idea in the book. In fact, many of a cardroom managers decisions should be influenced by this idea even though at times they won't seem much related.

Also, in general, I'm not a big fan of poker room management (but there have been some exceptions). And one of the areas where this often shows up is on poker room promotions which are often designed so that the wrong people get the money.

First, let me just state the PLO is the game I'm least knowledgeable in.

My opinion on bomb pots is already known. I just don't think they should ever be allowed because of the potential collusion issues. If a player wants to have bomb pots, he has probably never thought about how they're ideal for collusion. This is where poker room management can have a private conversation with the player, and I'm sure they would quickly understand and then appreciate the policy of no bomb pots.

I also believe that 100 big blinds is the correct amount for a buy-in (even though most rooms allow for larger buy-ins). Larger buy-ins affect the balance of luck and skill and, again in my opinion, tilt it too much towards skill. Suppose you're an expert player, sit in a new game, and notice that one of the poorer playing recs has a big stack. You would immediately match it and your edge in the game, and especially against that player, would go up. I believe in the long run that this will have the effect of reducing the number of games as the weaker will get wiped out too quickly. It should also reduce the long term win of the expert since the weak rec won't come back as often. So, here's a common policy that's bad for the recs, bad for the pros, and bad for the poker room.

I wouldn't offer the $1-$2 game unless there was something uniquely different about it. In Las Vegas, the $1-$2 games all seem to allow button straddles which is another rule I don't like. See the Cardrooms book for more discussion.

But a $1-$2 game with a button straddle is essentially the same size game as a $1-$3 without a button straddle. However, the balance of luck and skill can be effected by this rule. (Again see my book for more discussion.)

I'm not in The Lodge so I can't say for sure, but I suspect that this may cause some games to break down since many players don't like playing short handed and for the same reason, there won't be enough names on a list to start a new game. By looking at the names on the lists, you shoud be able to see if I'm correct. For instance, if both the $1-$2 and the $1-$3 have short lists, and the names are not all the same, you may be having this problem

And let me add a general comment which applies to many poker rooms and their managers. The manager should be knowledgeable and that knowledge should help him to make the right decisions. Asking players what he should do will usually result in (1) only having conversations with the better players who (2) will advise the poker room manager to run the room in the way that will maximize this player's short term profit. But doing this will often hurt the pro in the long run and will also hurt the poker room long-term

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi MHE:

I posted the complete Cardrooms book in this thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...ow-up-1793710/

So your friend, and anyone else, can read it here.

Best wishes,
Mason

Doug Polk knows that Mason Malmuth just got some dinero from the sale of Two Plus Two. I think he should have invited him to buy in to the some Lodge ownership. Mason not only has advice, he also has a platform.

This is crazy for the poker room to have this. But as long as it's going on the expert player will have an extremely high win rate. But don't expect a game like this to last, and that's bad for everyone.

And this is why, in general, I'm highly critical of most poker room management.

Okay.

And in what way do they play as big as $10-$20. I bet you've never thought of this. Do they play that size based on how much an expert can win, or do they play that size because the short-term luck factor has increased to that of a $10-$20 level. Unless they both increase by the right proportions neither one is good for poker.

Best wishes,
Mason

I just talked to Mike Williams, the manager of The Bellagio Poker Room. Their policy is no bomb pots.

However, I think he had not yet become manager when you played.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi Reggie:

Doug and I are good friends. He can talk directly to me whenever he wants.

The reason I'm posting some of this stuff here is that I want more people to become aware of these ideas and what I'm saying.

Best wishes,
Mason

Mason is just mad cause I troll him a bunch. Some times cuz he deserves it because he says things that I 100% disagree with and are 100& false (like the above that you called out), and sometimes cuz its just fun and he cant ban me anymore

Sure it makes sense. Players, usually for a number of reasons, get unhappy with the public poker room that they play in and then begin to look for a home game. And one of the things that makes them unhappy is the rake which is now way too high almost everywhere.

Mason

they're unhappy with rake so they leave casino games to play in home games with higher rake, often significantly higher rake?Sorry Mason but that doesn't make any sense at all.

I realize that some people may play in rake free home games with the same group of friends for a long time, but 99.9 percent of the time players are paying a lot more in rake in home games.

1000% this

No. They're unhappy with a number of things in which the rake is one of them. You should read what I write.

Mason

Hilarious that anyone in here would even discuss what changes should be done to blinds/structures in Texas poker games. *they're the best games in the country* and people want to change ****? How about don't mess up a good thing? Sorry that the 2/5 1k cap grinders in the thread enjoy their relatively terrible games so much. Just stay where you are.

Blinds are irrelevant in Texas. 1/3 isn't really 1/3. 2/5 isn't really 2/5. The reality is maybe, just maybe.... Texas has it right.

It’s all a question of time horizon. Texas “has it right” now, but what happens in a recession? Mason’s points about uncapped buyins and bomb pots etc that tilt things in favor of skill vs luck are undeniable negatives for the long term health of a local poker economy, but if Texas keeps seeing a massive influx of people and money, the local over economy can afford to churn bankrolls of long term losers. When that stops, the games will dry up.