Hi Joe. This is Jordan Morgan if you didn't know my screen name. I would like to sincerely thank you for coming here and opening this dialogue.

I was wondering if you can get me my hand histories? I saw in this thread you were able to help some people recover their (partial) hand histories, but I have never received mine even though I have asked repeatedly. I did receive a refund so there should at least be some that are recoverable.

Im not overly certain why people feel that the website should be technically responsible for refunding people money. The only comparison I can make is if you go into a department store, lets say Macy's, and the teller charges you $90. You hand her a $100 bill, but she only gives you $5 change. If the teller gets caught, (and obviously still has the money which russ apparently has) shouldn't the teller fork over the remaining $5?

Technically, this statement is true. We do have many representatives from different poker sites posting here on 2+2. Of course they identify themselves as site representatives, and come to us to be authorized to post as a site representative.

But the problem in this case was that these people were apparently posting without identifying themselves. The only other time I can remember something like this happening had to do with the CEO Poker Tour and the problems associated with it that were also exposed here.

Best wishes,
Mason

Players pay rake to poker sites, in part, for the service of providing fair games. If they drop the ball on this and let their customers get cheated, they owe it to those customers to reimburse them. They may or may not be legally obligated to, and operate in such murky legal territory that such an obligation would probably be hard to enforce, but if they expect anyone to ever play on their site again after a scandal of this sort it's what they have to do.

To go along with your example, suppose you have the choice of two or more stores to shop at. Suppose being robbed by the teller is a serious concern. Suppose one of those stores guarantees that if you are robbed by the teller they will reimburse you and one of them says "not our fault, go get the money from the guy who took it." Which store are you shopping at?

Also, all of this ignores that it is far from accepted fact that the cheating was not a large scale conspiracy in which many owners and managers of UB were actively involved or at least knowingly complicit.

Please consider this: When you stop posting, you make your fans unhappy but your detractors glad. When you continue to post, the converse is true!

Joe,

I think it would be great if you could clear up exactly why you place so much faith in Paul.

Paul and the current management definitely took place in the early cover-up, right? That means they absolutely lied in the past. Do you not think it is a reasonable assumption that if they would lie about a multimillion dollar theft, that they would then continue to lie in their own interest on down the line even if they realized the cover-up was a bad idea?

Does that not make it at least slightly more possible that Paul has been lying to you even though he has answered every question and maintained consistent answers?

Even if you think there is no way Paul and the management have continued to lie, don't you at least think that their participation in the cover-up has placed the burden 100% on them to absolutely prove their separation from the cheaters?

I just don't understand why you require proof from those that assert the bad guys are still around while it seems you take Paul at his word. I say it seems you didn't require proof from Paul because:

A) You don't know who the owners are.
B) You stated you put a tremendous amount of faith in him.
C) I have seen no evidence that the bad guys are gone, only claims by in press releases and statements.

I hope you see that I am not trying to attack you with this post. I am simply trying to get you to look at it from a different angle. Hopefully you will now understand more why we are so reluctant to take your or Paul's or UB's word that the cheaters are all gone. It is because you, Paul, and UB have not embraced the burden to prove that fact or to be transparent about it.

Best,
Jordan

While I appreciate your analogy, there is a substantial difference between a junior teller taking $5 in a one-off occasion, and the company management altering their software to deliberately overcharge customers on a regular and on-going basis, then denying that the overcharging took place, and then destroying the transaction records.

^ The analogy is flawed. A better comparison would be depositing money at a bank. If, through some form of internal fraud, money was taken from your account the bank would be legally bound to fully refund a customer. There is very little difference between a poker account and a bank account, other than the legal framework that applies to them.

Wow that thread link that bobo fett provided in regards to the shills is ridiculous.

What say you about that seebok?

Hey guys, I kind of went over post delete happy here (nailed like 16 posts), but let's really try to stay constructive and on topic.

The forum software we use has a moderated thread function although I am unsure of its implementation here. We could probably arrange something though, yes.

mmm, That's the tamer version. Wasn't there a version where he actually spoke about it happening 100 times to him, with 50 going his way and 50 shipped against him? And yes, people, the fact that it happened to their sponsored pro/spokesperson does indeed stretch credulity beyond breaking point. How many co-incidences can one beleaguered company endure, I wonder.

I'm all for the "new UB" story...I buy it...stuff it...it wasn't me who got ripped off by Russ's UB...moving all my funds there now...no joke. Software is very slick, players are very bad...past it past.

shaniac - i like you a lot but you gotta admit you got some egg on your face.

you bring a guy on here, who knowingly lines his pockets with money stolen from the poker community. he claims he's gonna answer questions about UB and then proceeds to offer absolutely nothing of any substance.

your boy made you look pretty bad here, you gotta admit. i'm curious as to whether you thought the outcome would be any different.

I wouldn't characterize Joe as "Shaniac's boy". I applaud Shane (and Joe) for efforts in getting an actual dialog started.

Things I've learned in the past 3 days:

1.) Joe Sebok put a value on his soul and reputation of about 30k a month
2.) UB/Cereus is still an absolutely corrupt company
3.) People still think that UB/Cereus are going to come clean out of the kindness of their heart.

The fact is they have zero reason to come clean. They are operating in an unregulated field and have no worries about legal ramifications for what they've done. They created their scapegoat, they're getting paid again, why would they answer the hard questions now? They know it's not going to increase their bottom line down the road, so why would a corrupt company shell out money from their own pockets to cheated players?

All the people that are asking for current management to be identified, think about this: Why out yourself when you know once the UB ship has run its course and sunk, you can just open up a new site with no ties to UB.

Seriously, this thread should be locked and Joe Sebok banned. He's already proven that the promise he made when he first took the job was empty. The only thing this forum is serving as is a place for him to talk circles around the problems and as a fall back for when he one day tries to restore his reputation.

This x100!

I've been saying this for months - we are not going to nail down Joe Sebok. Sebok is just spewing propaganda and I think Sebok should be banned until he agrees to answer questions the right way. He is simply doing PR for UB. Please, no more "thank you Joe for coming on the site" BS.

Paul Leggett is not coming on the site to answer questions - not in a million years. We all know the guy is connected to the scandal - why in God's fu**ing name would he come on here to be cross examined? The investigation will have to go on independently without UB interaction.

From what I have seen Joe likes to place the blame at others in the industry for UB's mistakes. "All sites do shady things".
I too would like to know who Joe is referring to in regards to paying for 2+2/forum shills.

Just curious - where did the 30k/month number come from? Do we know this is accurate? $360k/year for a guy that hasnt done much in poker sounds like a lot.

I preditct that Joe will leave UB in the near future. It has reached a point where he is effectively admitting that he cannot contribute anything more to the investigation. It is apparent that he tried (albeit, less than successfully).

If he stays with UB in the face of the fact that the vague assurances Mr Leggett gave him are not satisfactory and do not adequately answer pertinent questions in the eyes of the community, then he simply must give up his 'I'm a conduit for information' claim.

The information that actually matters is not forthcoming; Joe now has two choices: he can leave UB because he cannot help to uncover any more truth (his major reason for signing initially), or he can fully give himself up to the dark side and continue to get paid with the cheated community's money.

The humble 'I am doing the best that I can. We all want the truth' stance has worn thin, because, simply, actions speak louder. His attempt to straddle the line between respected community member and UB spokesperson hinged on the fact that he claimed he was trying to help the community uncover the truth. He has admitted ITT that the cheating scandal is now no longer something that he devotes much work towards.

As it stands, then, he can offer nothing more to the poker community in terms of the scandal. I expect that he will resign from UB, given their CURRENT management's gross (almost comical) mishandling of the situation; Joe has repeatedly stated that he works for UB because he trusts Paul Leggett, but with every day that goes by, Mr Leggett's refusal to address the important questions looks worse and worse on himself, on the company, and makes an even bigger mockery of Joe (who effectively vouched for Leggett).

If he doesn't resign, and he has admitted that he can no longer offer worthwhile assistance to uncovering the truth, then he is nothing better than a sellout. His bosses pay him with the money stolen from the very community whose members Joe purports to sympathise with.

The situation is at a crossraods; Joe must resign or admit that he has sold out.

he wasn't hired for what he's "done in poker", which is nothing.
he was hired for having a million twitter followers (which he only has because twitter used to have a "suggested users" section) and because he USED TO have some level of credibility as a member of the poker media.

Why does Sebok continue to fan the UB flames?. If I were UB I'd put a cork in him and tell the world we are looking forward only, in days these threads would be dead and gone.

As predicted by me and others Haley took her ball and went home after 2p2 would not continue feeding her massive ego.

I'm guessing UB is planning a huge party now that this whole thing has melted down into a blob of goo.

weak.

People are giving Joe too much credit so far. He came on this site because he was taking a huge amount of heat and wanted to make an appeal to cool things off.

In the process he hasn't added anything constructive or new to the dialog, but has made more empty promises about "trying" to talk to Leggett and he's also refused to address some pointed questions about what went on with the material he intentionally leaked for his company.

The guy is not being straight, for whatever reason, and he gets no credit at all unless he quits or gives answers.

My girlfriend has Joe Sebok in her twitter and she never added it and has no interest in poker whatsoever, and I don't use twitter....did he use his superuser powers to sign those million followers up to him??? I've always wondered about this!!!

No problem. Let me know your account(s) and I will get them for you.