My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments - Page 19 - Poker News

There's so many cheer leaders in here it's ridiculous. Like people wouldn't sign with a company like ub for millions of dollars. Please stfu. Although this dude is a rep for the site, he solely isn't responsible for the cheating scandal. He's a sponsored pro not a ****ing exec. On another note; Joe, stop enjoying your mid/low level of fame by airing you and your friends personal business on the internet. Just handle that **** like men.

No capable-minded person who has actually read the information can be this positive towards Joe or anyone associated with UB. If they actually do know what is going on and post this response, then they are an affiliated UB shill. I opened this thread to give Sebok a chance, but its been a huge waste of time. It was a mistake for him to make this thread since he apparently has nothing tangible to offer as far as real answers go. You could say he's not to blame, but he put himself on this pedestal to begin with by making the comments he made when he signed with UB.

03-23-2011 , 03:37 PM

#452

Obfuscation

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 943

I just read this whole thread and like the entire UB issue in general, it fills me with disgust for the pigs who got away with all this.

Even though I didn't play there very much or at high stakes, I don't understand how anyone who knew about this could voluntarily ever give them a penny's worth of business ever again.

I will say that Sebok clearly sold himself as a sort of ombudsman when he went to UB. Seeing all the backpedaling now is very disappointing, but hard to say you could have expected any other outcome.

God, I wish UB would just go under once and for all.

03-23-2011 , 03:41 PM

#453

FatalError

Fantasy Site Rep

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,184

I haven't been posting itt because I have nothing left to say, and because a lot of smart people have made any points i could.

I do want to clarify that there couldn't be anything joe knows about us that would be embarrassing to us now that joe has gone on record claiming he does indeed have something he could reveal publicly to embarrass us.

03-23-2011 , 03:43 PM

#454

danny9

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatalError

so are you telling him to go ahead and reveal it?

03-23-2011 , 03:46 PM

#455

Texas Chuck

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny9

so are you telling him to go ahead and reveal it?

you, sir, are out of line.

03-23-2011 , 03:48 PM

#456

shipit2kg

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4,837

YOU GUYS MAKE PLENTY OF MONEY, QUIT AIRING OUT EACH OTHERS BUSINESS ON A PUBLIC INTERNET FORUM, SERIOUSLY. WHO GIVES A **** WHAT'S EMBARRASSING OR NOT, AND WHO SAID YOUR THE JUDGE? GET OVER YOURSELVES.

03-23-2011 , 03:48 PM

#457

haley44

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 433

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahSD

Mike and Adam are awesome and have been solid on the UB issue in general, but I don't think that they know enough about this ridiculously nuanced story to be our sole representatives in a conversation with Paul. If this does happen, it pretty much has to be done in writing and with a number of voices present.

Ideally, 2p2 would provide a thread or a forum in which Paul and other UB reps could talk with a limited group of posters. Obviously this would include mods, admins, people currently involved in the ongoing investigation (haley, mookman, elevengrover, etc), people who were cheated, and people who were involved in the original investigation. And, of course, there would be a separate discussion thread in NVG.

Hopefully Paul would agree to something like this, but IIRC, UB "reached out" to 2p2 not too long ago and then simply stopped responding to e-mails from Mason?

Likely won't happen. In the first place the arrogance shown by Mason in his comments earlier typifies why I do as little as possible of this stuff via 2+2. Second, I already tried to contribute to this type of thing once (the CardRunners podcast) after being pressured to do so, and in my opinion the results were terribad. I don't think Paul would appear in such a context and I don't think Joe has the facts people seek, so it's an exercise in futility. And I'm doing just fine plugging along on my own.

R.I.P. Elizabeth Taylor [/end derail].

03-23-2011 , 03:53 PM

#458

dspholladay

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSebok

After a ton of deliberation and chatting with friends, one being Shane Schleger, and reading through some of the pages of this thread, I feel like it’s time to clear the air on the Jon Aguiar incident as best I can, as well as address some UB-related comments. I have been told repeatedly that this is a complete mistake by most, but I am going to try and give 2+2 more credit than some others would, and depend on you all to give me a fair shake and interpret objectively...

AGUIAR
First of all, I take full responsibility that my initial DM was overly aggressive and out of line. For that I apologize.

When I signed on with UB almost two years ago, I saw it as an opportunity to help turn a company around. I've been called everything from naive to a douche for thinking I could help change the company and the perception there, but I still feel like I have done my best, and am still making positive steps with UB. I have put a ton of work into those efforts. And because I have, I take the continued knocks against UB personally. Sometimes I act or say things in reaction that I wish I could take back. And given the way Aguiar was bashing UB with the Prahlad/Ike incident, even though it had nothing to do with UB, I reacted quickly and made a bad decision. No escaping that.

Now, did I view that DM to Jon as private? Absolutely. Do I think taking a private message and asking for a public apology is strange? That's irrelevant. I shouldn’t have sent it, plain and simple. Jon made his decisions after that, and over 700+ posts later, here we are.

All I’ll add to this is that in no way, shape, or form was that message an attempt to blackmail Jon or threaten him, and I don't believe he thought that legitimately for one second. I was not telling him I was literally going to expose skeletons in his closet, albeit my choice of words was obviously dreadful in that regard. I just wanted him to chill out on UB and realize that the company had nothing to do with the current disagreement between Prahlad/Ike. I just chose a bad way of expressing that. Given that I tweeted to “be a man” about it I’m sure didn’t help things either. I’m pretty sure most people who know me know I’m not the street fighting type, and I wasn’t asking Jon to come meet me there. I was understandably upset that he posted a private message in a public forum, and I wanted him to talk to me privately about it. I also feel that he has actively publicly misrepresented the situation when he knew better after that, but that's neither here nor there. My initial written post was a complete breakdown of all the ways that he had done so, but that just continues to fuel this fire and doesn't get us anywhere productive at all, so I scrapped it.

In summary, I made a mistake and I apologize for that mistake. If Jon feels that he owes anyone an apology, I'll leave that up to him to decide.

UB
With Travis Makar going on Donkdown (which, despite my personal feelings about them, I think they did a good job handling) and Haley’s most recent blog on Greg Pierson, there’s been a lot of new chatter on UB. Just wanted to state/reiterate a few things on 2+2:

1. I’ve never said that the current management group didn’t make some dire mistakes in their handling of the cheating scandal in the early stages, before I came on board. They did, and they know it. I simply do not believe that they a) actively helped the individuals who cheated to do so or get away with it, b) have doctored hand histories themselves to cover things up, or c) have attempted to hide facts to pay less money out in refunds.

The company was tailspinning after the scandal, and we’ve had to dig ourselves out of a huge hole. Mistakes were made early on. But we’ve been doing our best to win back support of the 2+2‘ers and others who, rightfully, abandoned the company back in ’07.

On that note, we have no doubt that there is way more information about the scandal that’s out there. And we want that information to come out. We want Haley to keep digging. We want Travis Makar to release everything he has. We will do nothing to stand in the way of this information from coming out. From my perspective, I don’t think the company will ever be able to 100% totally move forward until it does. And I, as well as management, personally hope it does.

2. UB management has never attempted to control what I say or when I say it. In fact, just the opposite. It’s one of the things I respect most about them. They have allowed me to make my own decisions. Maybe it’s not the best PR for them all the time, but I can make my own mistakes.

3. Regardless of your opinion of UB right now, please keep in mind that "making mistakes" (be it with the initial response to the scandal or even the ridiculous security lapse that happened last year) is far different then "helping cheaters cheat.” None of our pros were ever connected to the scandal. None of our management was part of the scandal. But we keep taking all the bullets, despite many people who were likely connected to either being a super-user, which is just disgusting and something that will forever be a black eye for us, or cover-up rarely get flamed to the level we do. It's your right to do it. I understand why you do it, but we're not the cheaters. We were not involved in the scandal in any way. Nor was our current management.

4. And yes, I believe that the current ownership is different from the former ownership. I have also heard constant claims that this is not so. Again, any proof of these claims would be great to see if it exists. I don't believe that it does. Of course, I am putting a great deal of faith in the current owners/management with making these claims, but that's what most of us do with our employers, and I am doing the same. Obviously if this were ever to be proven to be not true, I would feel duped.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this. 2+2 was instrumental in bringing the AP and UB super-user scandals to light and have helped continue to bring up new information over the past few years, and we are all indebted because of that. I do believe that UB should have a presence on this forum. On that note, I will try to answer questions or concerns that continue to pop up on UB when I am alerted to them. I can't promise I will become an active member of this community, but when issues arise that are reasonable, I will try and answer them.

Cheers,
J

Hi Todd Terry!!

03-23-2011 , 03:53 PM

#459

Texas Chuck

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,237

More derailing--while its the community itself and the quality of many of its posters that should receive most of the credit for the status of 2+2 in the poker world--I certainly dont begrudge Mason a little "Arrogance"

Obv I appreciate Haley's work ( and others) and its place in this world too.

03-23-2011 , 03:57 PM

#460

Ansky

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,523

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASPoker8

I find it most insulting that Joe has championed his intentions since his affiliation with UB "as uncovering facts/making progress/cleaning up the image" - rather than "making money."

Then when presented with information about the cheating/inconsistencies/questions, he:
-Doesn't know, you'll have to ask someone else about that.
-Is unable to access that information because he is only "a sponsored UB pro."

It is both insulting and disingenuous that he pretends to care about the truth regarding the UB cheating/coverup but refuses to partake in the investigation and barely understands most of it's history.

I'd have (some, maybe?) respect for him if he just said something like:
"I signed with UB to make money. I tried to get information about the UB cheating, but the upper level guys I talked to didn't tell me much. They gave me some names one time to release. I am not interested in doing anything further than that."

Haven't read beyond this post yet but I think this is spot on. I don't think you can have it both ways, Joe.

03-23-2011 , 03:59 PM

#461

Runkmud

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

This decision would be up to Mike and Adam, but I suspect a better way would be for them to consult first with Haley and Mookman, as well as the site, and then for Mike and Adam to ask the questions.

Best wishes,
mason

With all due respect Mason, I disagree here. I think Mike and Adam are awesome on the show, but getting a list of questions from Haley and Mook wouldn't be nearly as effective as having their direct responses and follow up questions. I don't think there are many who can claim more expertise than those two and I think any kind of filter would detract from the issues.

Actually I prefer Ike's idea of it done in the forum with limited write access.

03-23-2011 , 04:01 PM

#462

banonlinepoker

banned

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,338

Joe has a big decision to make IMO. It's brutally obvious UB is toast. Duke and Phil bailing sealed their fate and with US regulation around the corner UB is done. I am not sure what Joe's motives where for signing with them outside of money but the more he is with them the less respect he gets. Like I said he has to cut ties and start winning some tournies, and stop sending stupid tweets and PMs. Stop sticking up for a sinking ship Joe. Though noble it's professional suicide.

03-23-2011 , 04:05 PM

#463

kevinb1983

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoscoGeorge

Maybe I am being naive, but how could Joe have any inside info about this scandal? Why would the people within UB (past or present) who went through a hell of a lot of trouble to cover things up, all of a sudden want to disclose information to him?

Any info he does get and release is obviously part of the plan by whoever is involved at UB. (only info they give him is info they dont mind letting out) Do u really think they are going to give him any real info? Why would they want him knowing anything?....it makes no sense.

The twitter fiasco is just ridiculous imo. Joe obviously knows something about FE's gf and threatened to let that out in is DM if FE did not cool out about the UB bashing. Joe then comes on here and basically reiterates the blackmail again, and it worked because u dont see FE replying back and demanding the apology for his gf anymore.

They are both little girls, one basically saying im gonna tattle tale on u about ur gf, then the other saying im going to the principal to expose you. You are both to blame for getting into this mess, settle it like adults next time in the real world.

I made it to this point in the thread and just cant take it any more but I will give a +1 to you sir. **** is beyond stupid at this point. nothing but a bunch of soft ass pussies riding the coat tails of some very respectable/intelligent people who put in a metric **** ton of work on this matter. 90% of you were not affected by this issue and have done NOTHING to contribute to the uncovering of the scandal. all you want to do is pile on. get over yoursleves and let the grown ups talk for a bit mkayyyyy!

03-23-2011 , 04:07 PM

#464

dougmanct

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by haley44

This.

This thread has devolved into a useless disaster of high school drama.

It doesnt even appear that the participants in this thread even care much that theres evidence that a poker software program publically distributed a few years ago had a hidden 'god mode". It appears that arguing over who hurt who's girlfriend's feelings on twitter and fanboy-ing whatever Tom Dwan said was far, far more interesting to the general public.

And rest assured the REAL thieves see threads like this and take comfort knowing that even if a security researcher posted a complete top to bottom disassembly of the UB client spelling out to the letter how GodMode worked, the thread would get maybe a dozen views and a few replies because everyone is busy checking out a tweet Joe Sebok made about his breakfast.

That is why the folks with the real bombshells tend to drop them elsewhere.

03-23-2011 , 04:09 PM

#465

Ansky

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,523

Also let's all drop the Aguiar stuff, it's about .1% as important as the other issues being discussed here.

03-23-2011 , 04:09 PM

#466

ttwarrior1

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 309

he should run for office, an appology but not saying nothing

03-23-2011 , 04:09 PM

#467

=_=

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 337

Quote:

Originally Posted by banonlinepoker

Stop sticking up for a sinking ship Joe. Though noble it's professional suicide.

noble??? are you being serious right now???
you really think being noble has anything to do with it?
it was always about money and a longing for some sort of self-worth.

03-23-2011 , 04:10 PM

#468

No Fizzle

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansky

Also let's all drop the Aguiar stuff, it's about .1% as important as the other issues being discussed here.

It's been asked before, but it's a toilet that will not flush, I'm afraid.

03-23-2011 , 04:11 PM

#469

NoahSD

Is Right

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 18,843

Quote:

This thread has devolved into a useless disaster of high school drama.

This thread didn't devolve into that. Joe Sebok created this thread. The title of this thread is "My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments". Presumably, Joe intended this thread to be about this "high school drama", and he also just sorta wanted to throw in some stuff about how cool he thinks UB's current management is or whatever.

It's pretty weird to try to lump the two together, but Joe put them in one post, so it's his fault and not 2p2's that the two are being discussed in the same thread.

2p2 has plenty of serious threads about serious topics in which the signal:noise ratio is actually quite impressively high. It also has a much larger collection of threads about serious topics in which the signal:noise ratio totally sucks, but the signal is still there and it's damn worth wading through a whole lot of noise. It's an imperfect medium, but it's far and away the best that we have.

03-23-2011 , 04:17 PM

#470

Texas Chuck

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansky

Also let's all drop the Aguiar stuff, it's about .1% as important as the other issues being discussed here.

Never had to disagree so often with such respected posters but his threatening to out some "skeletons" on Jon's GF because of something Jon said about one of his fellow site pros and the site itself is relevant again to the culture of UB and to what kind of person Joe is.

I agree that Joe's backtracking on his bold claims of working from the inside to get to the bottom of this may well be worse. However $$ talks and people are naive to think he was ever gonna push really hard here.

03-23-2011 , 04:19 PM

#471

dougmanct

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Fizzle

It's been asked before, but it's a toilet that will not flush, I'm afraid.

Fair enough, and I concede that likely, the intention was to induce a pointless thread which could be pointed to as cover to say "look, i went on a public forum and took on all comers" which of course is not true but looks so given a thirty page thread.

The fact remains that this specific thread has been an exercise in futility.

03-23-2011 , 04:22 PM

#472

Bigdawgzuc

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 524

I guess gossip does sleep, cause we missed you for a while there Joe!

03-23-2011 , 04:22 PM

#473

No Fizzle

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,109

...

Last edited by No Fizzle; 03-23-2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Joe is here addressing things, going to read

03-23-2011 , 04:36 PM

#474

Kevmath

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 28,242

Locking this thread, started a new one with Sebok's last two posts. Let's attempt to keep matters to relevant issues like UB, k?

03-23-2011 , 04:42 PM

#475

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,010

Quote:

Originally Posted by haley44

Likely won't happen. In the first place the arrogance shown by Mason in his comments earlier typifies why I do as little as possible of this stuff via 2+2.

You should also state that we refused to send you free books for book reviews.

MM

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