but in your OP you wrote:

4. And yes, I believe that the current ownership is different from the former ownership.

which is it?

Thought it wasn't a tweet but a private message among guys that know each other.

It doesn't have to be 2p2 (or leggett for that matter). It can be pokerroad or UB.com for all I care. I just want to set something up where people like Haley and mookman can ask questions and expect answers. UB can have full control over who's invited and set whatever rules they like.

If Sebok means it when he says that an open, respectful dialogue between UB and the poker community is in everyone's best interest (and I believe he sincerely does) then I see no reason he wouldn't work with me to set this up.

Great post - pretty much sums things up.

Haven't you acknowledged yourself that they tried to cover up the scandal at first? Doesn't that count as "actively help[ing] the individuals who cheated to.. get away with it" AND "attempt[ing] to hide facts to pay less money out in refunds"?

If the next person signed to UB just admits they did it for the money and nothing else, they will at least get a shred of respect from the poker community for not spewing rationalization/BS.

Fwiw, played with OP a couple years ago in the ME and he seemed nice, charismatic, etc (def not a tough guy).

To add to this, on the Rabbit Hunt podcast, where you were answering questions on behalf of Legget. At one point, Legget stated that he was positive that none of the original cheaters were with the company anymore, yet when he was asked WHO the owners are, he stated that even HE didn't know who the owners are.

If nobody knows who owns the company, how are we sure that none of the cheaters are owners?

So yes, someone is lying.

...

I am another person who has not read the total thread -- is it called grunged -- but in his donkdown interview Mike Mad said he thought the new UB management was clean.

+1 to ggbman, -1 to the following essay from DesertCat

Guys that have met each other are aquaintances, not friends, and owe each other nothing.

the actual message was a twitter DM, a direct message sent from one twitter user to another. there are no reasonable expectations of privacy with DMs, or texts, or emails, or letters, or even 2+2 PMs.

You might send someone a personal message by any of those mechanisms, and hope that the other party keeps it private. But your expectation is based entirely on your relationship with that person. If they are a close friend, or you directly request that they keep the message private, you MAY have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Joe did not directly ask Jon to keep the message private. if he had, he still had no expectation of privacy because he wasn't Jons friend.

Whether you agree that it was a direct threat or not, it wasn't friendly, and Joe's really out to lunch if he expects he can send people messages like that without the expectation they will be shared. it was a confrontational warning, clearly it's going to be circulated, the only question is how far.

this is just a clear example if how unprofessional and childish Joe is. He sent a message, that clearly appeared as a threat even if Joe didn't intend it that way. He assumed the person he sent it wouldn't share it or had some obligation not to.

In the business world you can't send messages to competitors, customers or critics with any expectation of privacy.

I love that durr is a multi-millionaire and still posts in NVG... he is a great example for all of us poker players. All the other big name pros seem to stay out of our wild little community at 2 plus 2, props too durr for sticking with his roots.

I find the sebok thing pretty laughable... his apology is well written, but he still threatens to "expose" Jon's gf. Just keep her name out of your mouth u friggen jerkoff. Even if she did somethig bad I don't see how you have any right to throw her name around.

As for UB, it sucks, but what the hell can we really do about it. They stole millions, got away with it, and continue to make millions. Maybe one day they'll have their day of reckoning, we can only hope.

apologists keep apologizing for the guy who didn't apologize.

I guess... It just seems so hilarious/ridiculous that any poker player is so caring of a person that he would sign with a POS, unethical, prosperous off the little guy company like UB because he wants to help them turn things around. My impression was that on some level (after plenty of rationalization probably) op actually believed this was in fact his motive for signing.

But if he's just saying it because he has to, I kind of get that.

i will urge him to do so. i hope it will help, as i always do. i will attempt to get him to and also to set it up if he does agree.

my fear is that if he says anything other than, "you're right. we are liars and crooks" though that he will simply be called a liar. because of this he will probably be told not to do so, just as i was told not to come here initially.

all good points, tom + haley. i will also be urge paul to answer these questions as well. hopefully in his own forum, or perhaps new interview...? see what we can do.

I retract my original post on the first page of this thread ...after reading joes responses wow ...what the hell ...poor barry the apple does fall far from the tree.

Joe:

He should answer them here. 2+2 is where the poker community is, and since it's important that as many people as possible get the correct answers, that's why you started this thread isn't it? this is obviously the place to do it.

We could also probably set up an interview on our 2+2 PokerCast. Mike and Adam are the best in the business (and I assume they would be okay with the interview), and I can assure you that the interview will be done in a completely professional manner, but the tough questions will be asked.

By the way Joe, if this isn't acceptable, then my suggestion would be for you to reconsider your participation here. After all, you're representing Ultimate Bet, and by coming to 2+2 are reaching as many people in the poker community as possible.

Mason

Give haley, mookman and co full access to what they want for the investigation and that'll go some way towards restoring your credibility and 2+2ers giving UB another chance if you really have nothing to hide.

Until then, Joe Sebok and Ultimate Bet will be considered a liars and scumbags.

Edit: also, what mason said.

This dialogue should 100% be on 2+2. This is where all of the cheating and cover-up came to light.

Joe, do you have any answer for the inconsistencies that you have said in this thread?
- Saying old UB ownership is dif. than new UB, then responding to Bob saying there are the some of the old owners still involved?

Agree. I hate on Joe as much as the next guy. The tweet in question was clueless and overly-aggressive and warranted an apology (albeit not necessarily a public one -- it was Fatal Error who actually made the info public, so I wouldn't feel obligated to apologize to the world for something that he'd made public himself.)

But I don't think even Sebok is dimwitted enough to provide hard evidence of a genuine blackmail attempt. He can't have worked for that criminal enterprise all this time and have learned nothing at all. Surely if he was really attempting to blackmail FE, he'd have done it via phone or a trusted third party.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=422

+


= Successful DM imo

Could be the literal kind.

Shane, send a PM if you are being held hostage. Big Fan.

I respect you but disagree. There is an expectation of privacy among pms and direct messages on twitter. You, personally, would feel free to share pms you get here on the board or start threads in nvg when you and somebody you know get in an argument and it crosses the line. I would expect someone to try to deal with it on their own instead of creating a thread over it.(and I do not mean a physical confrontation, which I do not believe Joe was referring to when he said "be a man")

If I got in an argument with someone I know on the board and it went personal I'm not going to go run and create a thread about it or even post about it in the reg thread I participate in. I'm going to tell him to go **** himself. If I had also spoken to him in person besides online, I'd tell him he crossed the line and explain himself and think he owes an apology.(in a pm)

How many of you guys believe it is ok take a personal conversation in a pm over an argument and create a thread about it?

it's a complicated issue. there is a lot of reason to believe he has lied in the past and will continue to lie in the future. that is, essentially, the issue that people want to discuss. people will not take him at his word and will ask him to provide evidence to support any assertions he makes.

i think a respectful and productive dialogue can be had even if people are not inclined to trust him. you're not going to be dealing with the typical NVGtards saying "You're a lying scumbag, die in a grease fire." You will be dealing with well informed, articulate people saying "You said X. I believe that is false for Y and Z reasons."

If this did happen, is it possible for them to tell the truth? Naming names of current/former owners etc.? I'm not sure it is.