there are valid reasons for bashing 2+2, but this is not one of them. In fact, the entire cover-up that UB intended, including it's hiring of shills to bury past activities would have never seen the light of day without 2+2. How dare you come on here and bash this forum? You are in NO position to do so.

This thread is like Jose Canseco admitting he took steroids to sell his stupid book. In the end people are going to hate you no matter what, so why even bother trying to "improve" your name to people who already hold a pretty strong personal opinion?

I asked a ton of serious questions about UB on the PokerRoad forum a very long time ago. They were never answered. Can we start with those?


Edit: And my read on what Joe wrote about Jon's girlfriend in this thread is spot on.

Bottom line...
You, myself, and the POKER PLAYERS in here shouldn't give a flying ****ing **** about a Twitter war. This isn't the Nickelodeon forums.

We're talking about people having millions of dollars stolen from them and you guys are throwing a fit about some Twitter message and asking for a more in-depth apology and more in-depth discussions about it? I want as little discussion about the Twitter **** as possible, because I truly truly truly truly truly don't give a rats ass about it. I think anyone talking about it needs to get their priorities straight...big time.

Why would you associate yourself with a company you are ONLY putting your faith in that they are legit? It sounds to me like you're saying it isn't that a crazy of an idea that the truth comes out and it is revealed that the current management are a team of cheating scumbags. I thought when you signed with them you made it very clear you trusted them 100%? Why would you otherwise?

Joe, you haven't addressed UB's tactic of using shill accounts on 2+2 to defend UB. Do you approve of this practice?

i'm always happy to attempt to answer anything reasonable, todd. with your particulars though, i doubt i will know those answers. a better person to have answer them would be paul.

Is that why you titled your OP the way you did?

Well you could at least TRY to start with those instead of starting with a post with "LOL."

Joe is on foreign terrain here, a new member to the forum, we can afford a modicum of respect in order to hopefully create a baseline for communication.

Not sure why you didn't just post your question instead of posting a diss...this isn't PokerRoad forums, this is 2p2, and a fresh start for a thread on the issue, so you should post those questions anyway.

Once again, why does Paul avoid us?
Why doesn't he come in here and do what you're doing?

If he wants the truth out there (like you say he does), we are the originators of the "truth" in regards to this entire scandal. Where has he been all this time?

i don't know anything about any of this that you are talking about, just fyi. i am not a fan of paying people to post, etc on sites, altho i know that many sites, in and out of poker, do it. it's not my particular taste tho.

Joe, Im going to give you some really good advice.

You cant win in this thread - so dont try to. You can only lose gracefully.

Dont be defensive. Dont backtrack or explain.

Just apologize and make a sincere effort to be a better representative for the poker community.

Move forward and if you do behave better, in a few years this will all be forgotten.

Well Joe, does this mean you want to be the official representative for UB on 2+2?


EDIT: Made first page

If you hadn't brought her into it privately, it would have ended right there. It sounds like FE is ok with you enlightening us all with your inside knowledge on his gf.

Shane,

I have utmost respect for u. But Todd is right about Joe's post about the gf here and its not close. Todd does troll way more than any of wish he would since he has the respect of the community and people listen to him but hes dead on here.

How can you defend the company and claim to make efforts to clean it up when you don't even know about relatively small things like this? Do you have any insight whatsoever into how the company is run, or are you just a mouthpiece?

lol, absolutely spot on.

Joe, why not ask Paul to have UB/AP sue Russ Hamilton, the others named and Greg Pierson for stealing and destroying UB/AP's reputation in whatever relevant jurisdiction?

Much truth could be revealed and Russ/Greg/etc would either be forced in a court room to answer questions or have a huge judgement against them. The public wants accountability and the details known, if Paul is unwilling to do this then his company deserve to be blacklisted in the industry.

Joe in a recent interview you did with Pokerstatic you said "They (current UB) panicked, they tried to cover it up.........We should not have covered it up."

Paul Leggett said this in an interview with Pocketfives on 7-31-08

So what exactly did UB do to try to cover it up? Some details would be nice.

In the same Leggett interview, he said

Any chance any of this evidence will come forward? Or is the company only willing to let evidence come up from a different channel, like Makar or people sending stuff to Haley?

Leggett gave an interview produced by Tokwiro on the AP Scandal.

From screenshots Haley was sent, it appears money did leave the site.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n...0/scottom6.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n.../graycat-2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n.../graycat-4.jpg

How can these cashouts be explained? Also the one person doing he cheating also doesn't seem to make sense.

From Haley's blog Just Conjecturin', Volume 11: Meanwhile, Over at Absolute Poker, It Seems Scott Tom Really Did It or the thread on 2+2 about Scott Tom AP/UB -- PotRipper Backstory Fully Exposed and other stories

It seems Scott Tom name was "dragged into this" b/c he was guilty. Why is Paul/Cereus protecting the AP cheaters?

ElevenGrover has blogged a lot about the matter as well. His Loss Reports blogs raise some good questions.

Paul Leggett said this about the refund analysis by Uri Kozai, yet at the time neither mentioned missing HH's

Here is a post I made on PokerRoad that contains a link to Uri explaining his methodology. Seems it was pretty thorough to me.

I could go on and on pointing out the flaws in Leggett's interviews and blogs, but these are some main things I had questions on. Esp. Scott Tom, since you yourself Joe thought he was guilty, but it wasn't an official company response.

I asked for Paul to answer them when I posted them in 2009.

jesus dude give it up, why do you care s0 bad anyways ffs

Oh ok, well you were/are doing it, and as management could you please tell them to stop, especially if it's not your particular taste?

The posts were actually traced back to UB headquarters which is a hilarious exposure of UB's complete technological incompetency and general management incompetency. I don't really want to have anything to do with a site that employs such tactics that seek to further their reputation at the cost of 2+2's reputation. It's very frustrating.

I don't know why you had to qualify with "a lot of other sites do it", that really doesn't matter and looks like at attempt to dilute UB's responsibility in shilling when it's very unethical, and it also takes away any sincerity and legitimacy you have when you post on here afterwards.

We all like 2+2, so will you try and get them to stop it please?

I don't think anyone with a brain should / would think that the former owners of UB (russ hamilton, greg pierson, matloubi etc) are the current owners of the new UB+AP.

You remember the AP cheating scandal right, the T high call down, and the blatant cheating that went on at that site for a number of years - the issue isn't that the old UB now owns the new AP+UB, the issue is that the old AP, you know the ones that funded their entire operation on the premise that cheating their customers was a good way to generate revenue - these are the guys that now own the new UP+AP.

I think its convenient that you keep on stating that you don't think that the old UB owners are still involved or own AP+UB, but answer this if you would -

Do you think the Montana guys, the old original owners of AP - do you think they have any ownership or involvement in the new UB/AP company.

I have never heard you or anyone involved with the company state whether or not this was the case - and if this was the case would you still feel "duped"?

i wish that i could possibly know everything that happens at ub, but that just isn't possible. i am a sponsored pro who has attempted to get as involved in the business as i can. i don't think it's fair to think i could know every detail about how the company is run.

From personal experience I can tell you that many company's have faced scenarios where individual employee/s take it upon themselves to do stuff like this. Not defending UB, but it happens a lot.