Playing devil's advocate... IF their is completely new ownership (like Joe believes...and I actually believe he believes this), what makes you think they'd have "all of the facts" about the cheating scandal?

If you bought a car dealership that previously ripped people off and stole money from them, why would customers expect you to know all of the details of the previous ownerships immoral and unethical business ways?

If you don't believe there is new ownership then my question is void, but you never expressed that in your post.

i encourage everyone to read Haley's latest "just conjecturin'" post. it's not like i can personally go and examine the servers and understand if hands are missing or not, but it's very reasonable to believe the previous regime deleted some in order to protect certain individuals that may (or may not) have been part of the scandal.

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/

Nailed it. Well done. I'm impressed.

But at least you got paid to sell out right Joe?

wow...i saw the blackmail tweet, but what are these missing HH's?

you seem to have more facts than i do. i wish i was as sure about how everything went down as you seem to be. i actually wish that i knew much more than i do, altho i am proud of the pieces we have been able to put together, much of it with the help of member of 2+2 obv.

can't say it's perfect by any stretch, but i do think we know much more now than we used to.

Joe,

Why hasn't Paul come into a forum like this and do what you're doing right now? I think many would agree that his silence almost lends itself to guilt (whether that perception is true or not is irrelevant). As a CEO/COO of a company that is now "completely clean" (following the most gruesome scandal in the history of gambling), wouldn't he want to tackle the opposition head first? We all have so many questions involving him, questions only he could answer, why hasn't he given us a reasonable avenue to directly judge him for ourselves?

If he wants the truth out, like you claim he does, why is he hiding from the venue that revealed "the truth" to begin with, and continues to?

Well what can you do? What things have you done?

I'm surprised you believe the company agrees with your stance about the whole truth coming out being good for them long term when they have repeatedly shown otherwise.

Joe, why did UB send shills to the site to post propaganda and covert style marketing? Who were the shills? Do you think shilling is a legitimate and ethical marketing strategy?

How can we trust what you say, when you have used 2+2 as a tool to shill with, and then you use it as a tool to 'come clean' on?

You should talk about all of this on the next episode of the Joe Sebok show.

I notice you still refuse to address the inclusion of my girlfriend in this all, it's a huge point to just ignore in such a lengthy thought out response.

To elaborate, see this, Joe: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...l#post20820357

Bobo (forum mod) exposed a few accounts of pro-UB users that had IPs and e-mails that traced back to UB/AP headquarters.

jon, i am perfectly happy to let everyone know why i brought up your gf. that's your call. you know exactly why i mentioned her.

that's your business.

also wanted to add that by posting our private message publicly that you have brought her into this publicly, not i. i feel very badly for any stress that it may have caused her. i would probably think if you want to keep pushing it.

Who's the bigger dbag? JS for his text message or Jon for the way he handled it?

Joe: I think you went on board with UB with the best intentions. I think you got duped a bit by a sketchy corporation and I think that you handled the repercussions by going on the defensive. You're human and I'll give you all of that.

Your DM to a corporate critic bringing in something so personal as a man's woman crossed the line, though, and it shouldn't have taken something like Shane calling you out so cogently & convincingly for you to set things straight publicly. (And yes, publicly, because as a SpokesPerson, that comes with the territory.)

Hope you guys can all settle it up and act like the good guys I think you all really are. #GoodGuysWin2011

"In summary, I made a mistake and I apologize for that mistake. If Jon feels that he owes anyone an apology, I'll leave that up to him to decide."


Barry would have never thrown in the bold at the end of an apology.

Hollow apology. Hate is justified.

I never said the management isn't new and improved, they may have the best management of any poker site for all I know. But, to answer what you're saying let me ask you the same.

If you bought a used car delearship that previously ripped people off, wouldnt you get all the facts FIRST? Why on earth would you invest in something that previously scammed others without first having all the facts on a situation which could potentially, no, very likely, destroy your company before you see any return on your investment.

That leaves us 2 scenerios:
1. Current management took over with no more knowledge then we already have (e.g. not ALL the facts): This is highly unlikely and would be extremely risky on their part. I really do not believe they would take this risk, and if they did there is no way they realistically assumed they turn UB around.
Noone would buy a company they don't have all the facts about, at that point you just open your own network.

2. Current management has all the facts, and as stated, are waiting for us to uncover everything we possibly could and then apologize for what's been released.

Both scenerios are horrible IMO with the first being extremely unlikely, and the 2nd being horrible judgement.

**** just got real

LOL, awesome that he's threatening to reveal stuff about Jon's girlfriend in the apology thread.

I was coming to call out Hasseb again.

Well um, Jon kind of asked him to in a roundabout way?

Come on Todd, you're one of the respected posters on here, don't start trolling. Ask serious questions or gtfo imo.

I wouldn't count on them....ever.
http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/open...bets-dept.html

This of course isn't on Joe but I'm sure the blame will once again fall on him as the public figure head.

gimme a ****in break

im puzzled in that case why you took the job? I believe you would get alot less heat if you just admitted that you needed/wanted the money and dropped the cavalier BS