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Most Important Person In Poker? Most Important Person In Poker?

02-19-2024 , 10:49 AM
Im not an historian but I would say for me the top 3 is Binion, Doyle, Sexton
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02-19-2024 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NV8020
Phil Hellmuth for being an inspiration and our spiritual leader as poker players
... an inspiration to all the weinermobile drivers out there ?
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02-19-2024 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punker
I'll put out my suggestions. My criteria is basically who changed the game by taking the game more mainstream, thus exposing it to vast numbers of players:

1) Amarillo Slim - first to take poker sort of mainstream; he appeared on the talkshows, had all the funny stories, presented gambling as this funny kind of shady but in a good way world

2) Benny & Jack Binion - building the WSOP into the brand that it became. It couldn't have been any kind of real money making venture for many of the early years. This became the "it's normal to have this on your list of dreams" for the average person.

3) Koppleman and Levian - writers of Rounders. This was the first spark in getting the college crowd interested in poker

4) Mike Sexton - he believed poker could be a real mainstream thing, and tried repeated ventures until he hit upon the WPT. He also played a real part in the broadcasts as the announcer. There were a lot of other people involved in WPT (Lipscomb, Berman) but it always seemed clear to me that Sexton was the guy who made it happen.

5) Moneymaker - not much more needs to be said on this. Maybe it was a confluence of perfect storm events but he was the face of it. The name, the personality, and the connection to online poker. The boom was coming, but he was a force multiplier in both getting it started and growing it faster.

6) Ruth Parasol - founder of Party Poker in the early 2000s. For all the poker expertise that came in via FTP and all the technical and business acumen from PokerStars, Party brought the marketing muscle that gave so many people their first introduction to online poker. Her learnings from the online porn world provided the blueprint for online sites to market, use affiliates, rewards, everything.

7) Isai Scheinberg - took up the mantle when Party exited the USA (though you could argue the gap was already narrowing considerably) and gave people the excellent and safe experience they needed to move from "you really gave your credit card number to some poker site?" to "I play on PokerStars". Also took a major lead in regulatory progress outside the USA in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, and others.

Some people who didn't make my list:

Henry Orenstein - the lipstick camera was a big thing, but it's a flash of an idea, not something with sustained evolution.

Any individual poker player (Hellmuth, Ivey, Negreanu) - there's some name recognition and promotion, but all of it kind of gets really driven by the platform the people above gave them

The twoplustwo squad - probably the closest to making the list; there was a time when twoplustwo was ranked (IIRC) in the top 50 or 100 most visited websites on the internet. Still feel like it might have just been a little too niche.

Training sites - tbh I think they've been more destructive for poker than helpful. I understand why they exist, there's no way they would not exist, but they've hastened the downfall of online poker massively
A very good listing.

I would narrow it down, based on about 50 years of personal observation:

Jack Binion, for spreading No Limit Texas Holdem, in both cash and tournament formats

The WPT and Party Poker and UB for putting live poker onto the Travel Channel.

The various online operators who saw the potential and launched a large number of online within a span of 4 months in 2003, including Isai who brought professionalism to the online industry. "Move fast and break things" was online poker SOP long before Facebook arrived, A "Facebook" was iused at colleges for a publication furnished to the incoming college undergrads dating back to the 1970s)

Honorable Mentions to Mason and David, the Kahnawake Mohawk Nation and
the governments of Canada, Costa Rica and Antigua/Barbuda.

Last edited by Gzesh; 02-19-2024 at 11:53 AM.
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02-19-2024 , 04:53 PM
Isai
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02-19-2024 , 05:08 PM
I thought we were doing who is the most important person that’s Alive
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02-19-2024 , 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointlessWords
I thought we were doing who is the most important person that’s Alive
That would be Phil Hellmuth lol
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02-19-2024 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAAAA
That would be Phil Hellmuth lol
"Where did I get my wisdom from? Simple, Phil Hellmuth and his positivity is where I learned everything" Jesus Christ
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02-19-2024 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaxiFixi
If 2+2 is mentioned then pokerstrategy also has to be named.
I don't think Pokerstrategy had nearly the impact that 2+2 had on growing the game.

That said, if we're looking for the people who made the most money from poker, the PS guys are pretty far up the list.
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02-19-2024 , 11:50 PM
Seconding Phil Hellmuth!
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02-20-2024 , 07:37 AM
Johnny Hughes
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02-20-2024 , 11:58 AM
I dont recall his name but I would vote for the guy who runs ACR because he's created a great online site Americans can play in.
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02-20-2024 , 01:17 PM
Nice list. I also vote Moneymaker, though the hole card cam inventor you mentioned is the unsung hero/facilitator here. It's an interesting thought experiment to wonder what would've happened to poker had someone like Joe Cada or Peter Eastgate won in 2003--young (and therefore potentially inspirational) but not so memorable. Moneymaker isn't even a particularly compelling personality, but the name and backstory were impossible to beat.

Last edited by mrcnkwcz; 02-20-2024 at 01:26 PM.
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02-20-2024 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAAAA
He would but calling himself Moneymaker made his win even better. Of course if he used his real name, Smith, which is so common, he would have come across as an even bigger "everyman" and that may have made him even more popular than the Moneymaker.
'Chris Moneymaker' achieved way more popularity than 'Chris Smith' ever would have
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02-20-2024 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth
I doubt it's Moneymaker. We had already seen a giant increase in our book sales before he won the 2003 Mian Event at the WSOP. However, the WPT TV shows started at the end of April that same year so this implies that eithe Steve Lipscomb or Henry Orenstein were more important.

Jack Binion also needs major consideration. He's the one who was pushing poker, this goes back to the early 1970s, and the WSOP was growing every year way before the 2003 breakthrough.

I doubt that Randy Blumer should be considered. While Planet Poker was the first Internet poker site, it was never that big and I suspect if he didn't get it going someone else would have. This shouldn't take anything away from him, but I don't think he was as important as the other people on this list.

You may also want to consider Greg Raymer who won the WSOP in 2004 and got tremendous publicity. When Moneymake won the previous year, it had no impact on our book sales, they were already booming. But when Raymer won, our substantial book sales immediately showed a large increase.

Another person to add to this list is Dan Harrington. When the first Harrington book, written by Dan and Bill Robertie, came out in Dec. 2004 (followed by the second volume in June 2005), it created a sensation, sold a huge amount of copies, and dramatically impacted how people played poker, both in tournaments and in cash games.

Also, and I don't mean to sound self-centered, I think everything Two Plus Two is perhaps as important, or more so, than anyone on this list. And that includes not only our family of books but this website as well. Of course, when I say Two Plus Two, it included many more people than just David Sklansky and myself.

Mason
Book sales are way less relevant of a metric than actual participation in poker (though of course a correlation should exist). Many of my friends who got into poker in or around 2003 never bought a single poker book. I take it that in your estimation, the 'The Moneymaker Effect' is a mere misnomer? Interview 100 poker players roughly my age (37, nearing the end of high school in 2003), and the top two answers you're going to get to this poll are Moneymaker and Matt Damon/Ed Norton

ETA 631 839 2576 5619. Those are the number of entrants in the Main Event from 2002-2005. So although there was a larger increase from 2004 to 2005 than there was from 2003 to 2004, I'd still chalk up the 2004-2005 increase to 'residual Moneymaker Effect' as opposed to 'Fossilman Effect'

Last edited by mrcnkwcz; 02-20-2024 at 01:40 PM.
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02-20-2024 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punker
I'll put out my suggestions. My criteria is basically who changed the game by taking the game more mainstream, thus exposing it to vast numbers of players:

1) Amarillo Slim - first to take poker sort of mainstream; he appeared on the talkshows, had all the funny stories, presented gambling as this funny kind of shady but in a good way world

2) Benny & Jack Binion - building the WSOP into the brand that it became. It couldn't have been any kind of real money making venture for many of the early years. This became the "it's normal to have this on your list of dreams" for the average person.

3) Koppleman and Levian - writers of Rounders. This was the first spark in getting the college crowd interested in poker

4) Mike Sexton - he believed poker could be a real mainstream thing, and tried repeated ventures until he hit upon the WPT. He also played a real part in the broadcasts as the announcer. There were a lot of other people involved in WPT (Lipscomb, Berman) but it always seemed clear to me that Sexton was the guy who made it happen.

5) Moneymaker - not much more needs to be said on this. Maybe it was a confluence of perfect storm events but he was the face of it. The name, the personality, and the connection to online poker. The boom was coming, but he was a force multiplier in both getting it started and growing it faster.

6) Ruth Parasol - founder of Party Poker in the early 2000s. For all the poker expertise that came in via FTP and all the technical and business acumen from PokerStars, Party brought the marketing muscle that gave so many people their first introduction to online poker. Her learnings from the online porn world provided the blueprint for online sites to market, use affiliates, rewards, everything.

7) Isai Scheinberg - took up the mantle when Party exited the USA (though you could argue the gap was already narrowing considerably) and gave people the excellent and safe experience they needed to move from "you really gave your credit card number to some poker site?" to "I play on PokerStars". Also took a major lead in regulatory progress outside the USA in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, and others.

Some people who didn't make my list:

Henry Orenstein - the lipstick camera was a big thing, but it's a flash of an idea, not something with sustained evolution.

Any individual poker player (Hellmuth, Ivey, Negreanu) - there's some name recognition and promotion, but all of it kind of gets really driven by the platform the people above gave them

The twoplustwo squad - probably the closest to making the list; there was a time when twoplustwo was ranked (IIRC) in the top 50 or 100 most visited websites on the internet. Still feel like it might have just been a little too niche.

Training sites - tbh I think they've been more destructive for poker than helpful. I understand why they exist, there's no way they would not exist, but they've hastened the downfall of online poker massively
It'll be very difficult to improve upon this post
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02-20-2024 , 02:01 PM
ETA 631 839 2576 5619. Those are the number of entrants in the Main Event from 2002-2005. So although there was a larger increase from 2004 to 2005 than there was from 2003 to 2004, I'd still chalk up the 2004-2005 increase to 'residual Moneymaker Effect' as opposed to 'Fossilman Effect'[/QUOTE]

And also the percentage gain in players from '03-'04 was over 200% while from '04-'05, after Raymer won, was just under 100%
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02-20-2024 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcnkwcz
Book sales are way less relevant of a metric than actual participation in poker (though of course a correlation should exist). Many of my friends who got into poker in or around 2003 never bought a single poker book. I take it that in your estimation, the 'The Moneymaker Effect' is a mere misnomer? Interview 100 poker players roughly my age (37, nearing the end of high school in 2003), and the top two answers you're going to get to this poll are Moneymaker and Matt Damon/Ed Norton

ETA 631 839 2576 5619. Those are the number of entrants in the Main Event from 2002-2005. So although there was a larger increase from 2004 to 2005 than there was from 2003 to 2004, I'd still chalk up the 2004-2005 increase to 'residual Moneymaker Effect' as opposed to 'Fossilman Effect'
First, I suspect that our book sales were much more than you realize . Second, the correlation was probably very strong. Our book sales increased by a factor of 10 when comparing 2002 to 2005(and this was greatly helped by the release of the first two Harrington books starting in Dec. 2004), and this increase was well on its way before Moneymaker won in 2003. Third, while the Fossilman effect may be largely forgotten today, its impact was dramatic in 2004.

Now with all this being said, I don't mean to take anything away from Moneymaker. From my perspective, he probably played an important role in maintaining the initial poker boom. But in my opinion, I don't think his impact was as significant as many people today think it was.

I actually think the premise of this thread is a little off even though it's still an interesting question. What I think happened is that a number of things came together which caused the poker boom, and the value of the hold was actually much larger than the sum of the individual parts.

And one final thing, the poker boom, which began when the original World Poker Tour shows were shown on the Travel Channel in 2003, turned my life upside down and impacted me greatly.

Mason
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02-20-2024 , 02:11 PM
Mike Sexton, if I remember right and he narrated the televised WPT tournaments. Ask almost anyone what was the first non-fictional piece of poker related media they were exposed to, and it's going to be the WPT broadcasts at a high likelihood.
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02-20-2024 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAAAA
ETA 631 839 2576 5619. Those are the number of entrants in the Main Event from 2002-2005. So although there was a larger increase from 2004 to 2005 than there was from 2003 to 2004, I'd still chalk up the 2004-2005 increase to 'residual Moneymaker Effect' as opposed to 'Fossilman Effect'
And also the percentage gain in players from '03-'04 was over 200% while from '04-'05, after Raymer won, was just under 100%[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I originally intended to mention that as well, but I figured the point was already made
Most Important Person In Poker? Quote
02-20-2024 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth
First, I suspect that our book sales were much more than you realize . Second, the correlation was probably very strong. Our book sales increased by a factor of 10 when comparing 2002 to 2005(and this was greatly helped by the release of the first two Harrington books starting in Dec. 2004), and this increase was well on its way before Moneymaker won in 2003. Third, while the Fossilman effect may be largely forgotten today, its impact was dramatic in 2004.

Now with all this being said, I don't mean to take anything away from Moneymaker. From my perspective, he probably played an important role in maintaining the initial poker boom. But in my opinion, I don't think his impact was as significant as many people today think it was.

I actually think the premise of this thread is a little off even though it's still an interesting question. What I think happened is that a number of things came together which caused the poker boom, and the value of the hold was actually much larger than the sum of the individual parts.

And one final thing, the poker boom, which began when the original World Poker Tour shows were shown on the Travel Channel in 2003, turned my life upside down and impacted me greatly.

Mason
It'd be interesting to see 2+2's historical sales data. I imagine 2005 was the peak year in the history of your company? Videos/online content and D+B were minimal or nonexistent back then. Cardoza would've been the main competition, to my knowledge.

The thing with the WPT was that it was on the Travel Channel. Senior year of high school in 2003, my AP calculus teacher was himself a poker player whom I'd later play against, and I remember him asking the class if any of us watched the WPT. Two of my classmates did. By that time the next year, I also did, but the WSOP being on ESPN really helped its visibility. Gus Hansen and Esfandiari did make their name on WPT telecasts IIRC, but I'd imagine we could find some viewership data for 2003 WPT episodes versus the 2003 World Series, and I doubt it would compare favorably for the WPT. I buy the argument that the boom started slightly before Moneymaker, but I think he/that tournament was an accelerant that dwarfs the other factors of the time period. If there's data that demonstrates otherwise, I'd be happy to change my mind.
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02-20-2024 , 03:16 PM
Would the most important person in poker be the one who contributed the most to the game?

If so, I'd vote for Jamie Gold. He's contributed almost his entire $12M WSOP winnings (and net worth) back to the poker community. Honorable mention goes to Guy Laliberté and Andy Beal, and the millions of poker players who make it profitable to play the game. Without them, poker as we know it wouldn't exist.
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02-20-2024 , 03:17 PM
The hole card cam is the biggest contributor. It made poker viable for TV which is what made the poker boom sustainable. Moneymaker, Binion, 2+2 or whomever else can't hold a candle to people being able to the follow the action and thinking, "I can do that!"
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02-20-2024 , 05:35 PM
Some names that are missing:

Bobby Baldwin: Not only was he a road gambler in the era of Texas Dolly, Amarillo Slim, and Sailor Roberts, not only was he an early winner of the WSOP main event, but he was Steve Wynn's right hand man when Wynn was reshaping the idea of the Las Vegas casino resort. As such, he kept poker in the foreground, with (in succession) the poker rooms at the Golden Nugget, the Mirage, Bellagio, and the Wynn.

Doug Dalton: the poker room manager, under Baldwin, at the Golden Nugget, the Mirage, and Bellagio. Under him, the rules and procedures of cardroom poker were regularized.

Speaking of regularizing rules, Bob Ciaffone should be given a nod for Robert's Rules of Poker which are the gold standard for rules of play and conduct.

Another influential figure: Matt Savage, who managed the transition of tournament poker into the television era. He founded the Tournament Directors Association.

He's not the GOAT, he does not have the most bracelets, but Daniel Negreanu is probably the poker player who is best known to the public at large, better known even than Hellmuth.
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02-20-2024 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity Well
The hole card cam is the biggest contributor. It made poker viable for TV which is what made the poker boom sustainable. Moneymaker, Binion, 2+2 or whomever else can't hold a candle to people being able to the follow the action and thinking, "I can do that!"
The hole-card cam was an incremental improvement, not itself revolutionary. The wild success of Late Night Poker and Ladbroke's Poker Million tournament proved that televised poker had a hungry audience.
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02-20-2024 , 06:22 PM
Moneymaker
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