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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-06-2013, 01:51 AM   #1576
Fordham
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
No, they just put it on their "tab" at the Turn.
lol
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:32 AM   #1577
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by TheyVeKilledKenny View Post
Oh c'mon.

CM handled himself in that thread almost perfectly and he did all he could, and beyond.

If anyone can take anything from that thread is how good, positive and stand-up guy CM is.
And even his fruit-basket joke was funny.

Wouldn't say the exactly the same for this thread, but as it is evolving itself to a good conclusion, will not stir things up.

(post no. 6 ITT)
Could not disagree more.

It takes an extremely naive person to buy the fact that CM had no idea - over the course of a year and numerous emails - that the poker tournament which he sponsored had stiffed the prizewinners.

Is running Moneymaker Gaming so time consuming that the President doesn't have time to make sure all finished correctly with the tournament they sponsored?
It is either incompetence on a massive scale, or intentional stiffing.
It's obvious to me that it's intentional stiffing.

"And even his fruit-basket joke was funny."

Yes, I'm sure if you were stiffed of a prize worth 10k and had to unsuccessfully chase CM for a year to get a resolution, you would be laughing at his demeaning comments.
I didn't find it funny, nor did other posters in the thread.

There was nothing standup on Moneymaker's part until he was publicly shamed into making (sort of) good.
Similar to this thread in that regard.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:36 AM   #1578
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Don't remember specifics of other thread but do know for a fact I had zero knowledge of any of it till I was alerted to the thread. I found out the facts and got checks cut that week. As for this situation I am doing best to make right decision. I giving 6k to sheets charity and talking with jason and other guys owed.
"Don't remember specifics of other thread but do know for a fact I had zero knowledge of any of it till I was alerted to the thread."

Yes, of course, because running Moneymaker Gaming is like running Facebook - much too much to do and no time to sign off on a tournament you personally sponsored and make sure all were paid off properly.

As the OP in that thread mentions, there was no one there when the tourney ended including yourself to make arrangements for him to receive his prize. And when he did catch up to one of your reps the next day, he was given no paperwork of any kind.

He then spent a year trying to get paid, but of course you had no idea, because the massive staff of (iirc) two people - you and an assistant - could not possible be bothered with such petty details as paying your tournament players.

And your assistant never breathed a word of this to you over the course of a year.

Massive incompetence at the very least, and you are responsible.

At the end of the thread the person who won 3rd place points out that he had not been taken care of, after you took care of the OP who had won 1st place.

And no response from you.

No doubt you still don't know about any of this.

"" 12-23-2008, 01:56 PM #313
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Re: Stiffed by Moneymaker Gaming--Now Resolved?


Well, no word from moneymaker. Finally got some pictures sent to us. No prize board shown but it should be clear that i took 3rd place. It appears that this thread will stay unresolved and that i will continue to be stiffed by moneymaker indefinately as the sun seems to be setting on this fiasco..."

Last edited by Stinky Johnson; 11-06-2013 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:08 AM   #1579
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I find the excuses reminiscent of CM's excuses in this thread:

"12-02-2008, 01:47 PM #151
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Re: Stiffed by Moneymaker Gaming

Does anyone else find it weird how two people got sent checks they never received? Guess after a year of nonsense it seemed like a good idea to put $4500 checks via regular mail."



"" 12-02-2008, 12:05 PM #140
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Re: Stiffed by Moneymaker Gaming


Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonInDallas View Post
... lol at Moneymaker Gaming, with its Under Construction forever website, being big enough for a separate Accounts Payable department. What's that on a different floor of your office tower Chris? Is Accounts Payable in the Atlanta office, and "legal" in the Manhattan headquarters? Company is too big to just ask someone where the check went? It needs to be "researched"? Gimme a break."


Those posts are from 2008.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...58/index2.html


But "Moneymaker Gaming" is still a happening and vibrant enterprise, and Moneymaker is obviously flush with cash, so that certainly didn't contribute to CM's stalling on the current debt:

http://www.moneymakergaming.com/

Last edited by Stinky Johnson; 11-06-2013 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:21 AM   #1580
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Also... To be resolved in a decent manner, paying someone 45% worth of the price you promised him... It's not the way I would describe a completely satisfying way of resolving a problem after that long a period of time. Even if the guy owed said that he would take 5.000 as a solution, if you are a real stand up decent guy you say: 'No man, I promised you a package worth 10k and my staff, without my knowing, completely f-d up, for which I am terribly sorry, so I will give you the net worth of the package (plus a fruit basket because I am a funny guy.)'

So I would not say CM handled perfectly in that manner. But in that case it was business with three innocent guys, whereas here I completely agree with the commenter who said that CM and JY deserve eachtother.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:30 AM   #1581
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMLAW View Post
Also... To be resolved in a decent manner, paying someone 45% worth of the price you promised him... It's not the way I would describe a completely satisfying way of resolving a problem after that long a period of time. Even if the guy owed said that he would take 5.000 as a solution, if you are a real stand up decent guy you say: 'No man, I promised you a package worth 10k and my staff, without my knowing, completely f-d up, for which I am terribly sorry, so I will give you the net worth of the package (plus a fruit basket because I am a funny guy.)'

So I would not say CM handled perfectly in that manner. But in that case it was business with three innocent guys, whereas here I completely agree with the commenter who said that CM and JY deserve eachtother.
Wow. So there is a pattern here. The worst part of that pathetic ordeal was how CM blamed it on his "staff," the ultimate cop out. Even if they did screw up, you never, ever blame the staff. You man up and take responsibility. It's just so bush league.

And as someone noted, let's not pretend Moneymaker Gaming (TIL: "web site may be for sale") is a massive venture involving more than, at most, a handful of people. And probably more like 2 or 3. CM is over his head, full stop.

Here's some unsolicited advice: get out of Vegas. Stop your sports betting cold turkey. Seek help if you can't do it alone. Do it for your family. Go back to Tennessee. Find an auto dealership and make a deal to do some local commercials: "You'll win big at Hudson Honda!" Find other, similar companies that you can endorse: "I got a free lube at Jimmy Jone's Auto Shop!" Blah, blah, blah.

Never take direct responsibility for anything, just lease out your name, have them pay you for your time. Make a deal with a local casino where you show up occasionally and hence have all of your buy-ins covered, plus free food and drinks. Occasionally you'll bink a tournament, and that's gravy on top of your regularly salary. Have it in your contract that you are not allowed to do anything at the casino except play poker tournaments (for free). Pits and sports gambling are off limits, and the casino is contractually liable for your losses. Put it in the contract, that will ensure you won't be allowed anywhere near those areas.

Work on your public speaking. Start to give motivational speeches to local businesses. You're not going to get the big bucks, but you can probably do 2k USD per speech. That adds up fast. Simple themes that sucker businesses eat up: "If you can visualize it, you can make it happen!" Or "Never give up, no matter what the odds!" Or "The harder I worked, the luckier I got!" Just complete BS, but trust me, businesses need to fill lots of sales conferences, team building weekends, whatever, and 2k is not a lot of money for them. Tell them you'll autograph a few pics while there. Demand free food and drinks, too. If 20 minute speeches are too difficult, I'll write them for you myself for a cut. You can give the same speech over and over, they'll never know. Try to organize them around themes: Strategy, Sales, Motivation. It makes it look like you're organized.

The key to all of this is you take responsibility for nothing. NOTHING. You just can't manage it. You get paid just for showing up, and at most giving some lame speech. Then you leave and invoice them. Under no circumstances should you invest any of your own money into anything, it's just going to end badly. Licensing your name and renting your time is the way to go. Zero liability, and put it in the contract. When these third parties stiff anyone, you need to show that you are not in any way liable. You're the good guy, not the suit. Remember, you are taking responsibility for nothing, absolutely nothing.

In an ironic twist, perhaps Jason can use you at the Turn. "Meet the World Champion" night at the Turn! You get a fixed appearance fee (200 USD), free dinner, and 10% of the take that night. This could be another revenue stream for you, plus free food and drinks (beer and wine).

The opportunities are limitless. Yes, this would have been much more lucrative 10 years ago. But the past is the past. Lower your expectations, roll up your sleeves, and get to it. 100k a year (pretax) is aggressive, but doable. This is a great salary, especially in Tennessee. You are blessed with a fantastic last name, a marketer's dream. OK, you're never going to make the big bucks, but you'll live a very comfortable, stress-free life.

GL.

--PP
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:23 AM   #1582
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Archaic systems of payment ITT.

I hear the Pony Express also has a pretty good reputation. Plus, they offer insurance against Indian attacks.
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:45 AM   #1583
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
Still no answer on why Jason never bothered to meet with CM in private over the last 18 months with all of his "evidence"???LOL
Why should he have to?

Seems like a pretty cut and dry sort of case to 'litigate' (i.e. come to 2+2) whenever he wants if we go by the texts - some people like mediation (as it seems by your propositions) but others just want it over and done with and that's the old litigation route...but as for why he hasn't pressed for 'litigation' or mediation prior?

Maybe giving MM more time to come up with some money as a gesture to limit the damage on his rep and goodwill amongst poker players and in the community if they could have resolved it behind closed doors?
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:49 AM   #1584
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobel1 View Post
I already read this post, still ridic. What happened to the 3rd guy?

Sorry for OT
It seems clear from that thread that CM paid the guy who won 1st due to the twoplustwo thread (while clearly taking the attitude that CM was doing the stiffee a big favor by paying him something after a year), but ignored the guy who won 3rd place (the 3rd guy) who he'd also stiffed, and CM then disappeared from the thread.


"Sorry for OT"

It's not OT at all, it's indicative of a pattern of behavior - stalling on payments, excuses, refusing to accept personal responsibility, stiffing.

Last edited by Stinky Johnson; 11-06-2013 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:50 AM   #1585
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Johnson View Post
"Don't remember specifics of other thread but do know for a fact I had zero knowledge of any of it till I was alerted to the thread."

Yes, of course, because running Moneymaker Gaming is like running Facebook - much too much to do and no time to sign off on a tournament you personally sponsored and make sure all were paid off properly.

As the OP in that thread mentions, there was no one there when the tourney ended including yourself to make arrangements for him to receive his prize. And when he did catch up to one of your reps the next day, he was given no paperwork of any kind.

He then spent a year trying to get paid, but of course you had no idea, because the massive staff of (iirc) two people - you and an assistant - could not possible be bothered with such petty details as paying your tournament players.

And your assistant never breathed a word of this to you over the course of a year.

Massive incompetence at the very least, and you are responsible.

At the end of the thread the person who won 3rd place points out that he had not been taken care of, after you took care of the OP who had won 1st place.

And no response from you.

No doubt you still don't know about any of this.

"" 12-23-2008, 01:56 PM #313
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Re: Stiffed by Moneymaker Gaming--Now Resolved?


Well, no word from moneymaker. Finally got some pictures sent to us. No prize board shown but it should be clear that i took 3rd place. It appears that this thread will stay unresolved and that i will continue to be stiffed by moneymaker indefinately as the sun seems to be setting on this fiasco..."
I would be interested to see a response from MM about this as well. It all seemed too convenient that that thread ended so abruptly the way it did...
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:05 AM   #1586
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraguePoker View Post
...as someone noted, let's not pretend Moneymaker Gaming (TIL: "web site may be for sale") is a massive venture involving more than, at most, a handful of people. And probably more like 2 or 3. CM is over his head, full stop.
I'm pretty sure I linked to it in that thread, but at that time I found one of those websites with info on businesses including size of staff and it listed Moneymaker Gaming as having a staff of 2 (including Moneymaker).
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:09 AM   #1587
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Johnson View Post
I'm pretty sure I linked to it in that thread, but at that time I found one of those websites with info on businesses including size of staff and it listed Moneymaker Gaming as having a staff of 2 (including Moneymaker).
Is the other staff member Dan?
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:37 AM   #1588
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Is the other staff member Dan?
I guess so - it appears he's an assistant/associate, and the one CM uses as an excuse for not taking care of business.

As in - "It was all Dan's fault. In our 2 person office, he and I, with nothing going on with the company the majority of the time, there was no way that information could have possibly reached me - not within a mere year's time.

Yes, I was present at the tournament. Yes, I had made no arrangement to have myself or Dan meet the winner of the tournament when it ended - it's his job to try to find us!
After all, I was only hosting in person and sponsoring the tournament - why should I meet the winner when it's over? Why should I make sure he is paid?

Dan's fault. Clearly."

Last edited by Stinky Johnson; 11-06-2013 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:01 AM   #1589
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Why should he have to?
Umm, because he wants to get paid? Seems more likely to get paid by privately providing evidence to MM than by outing him on 2+2.

Oh, and you still didn't answer my question - why is JY assuming the bookie's debts and making payouts?
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:36 AM   #1590
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Why should he have to?
Errr, Because he "claims" he is owed on a wager and wants to collect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Seems like a pretty cut and dry sort of case to 'litigate' (i.e. come to 2+2) whenever he wants if we go by the texts - some people like mediation (as it seems by your propositions) but others just want it over and done with and that's the old litigation route
Hmmm, so 2+2 is a venue by which you "litigate" a matter. Well if we were to poll the jury, the verdict would go to CM. So I guess the verdict goes to CM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
...but as for why he hasn't pressed for 'litigation' or mediation prior?
Yes, most degen gamblers who are broke and own restaurants in which they sunk their life savings, usually wait 18 months to collect on a 25k (?) debt. Suoer standard play there. Easier explanation- he was a scammer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Maybe giving MM more time to come up with some money as a gesture to limit the damage on his rep and goodwill amongst poker players
Yes, he was so concerned about "goodwill" that he allegedly ran to Pstars like a lil *****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
and in the community if they could have resolved it behind closed doors?
CM maintains to this day and ITT that if Jason could produce any legitimate evidence (bet slips, bank statements, emails, texts, etc) he would snap pay and apologize. Yet, your fair haired boy is full of bluster and little substance.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #1591
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Stinky Johnson View Post
I'm pretty sure I linked to it in that thread, but at that time I found one of those websites with info on businesses including size of staff and it listed Moneymaker Gaming as having a staff of 2 (including Moneymaker).
In his defense, he can always use temp workers to help manage events like this, in addition to "staff". Makes more sense, anyway, unless he's running tournaments weekly. But it doesn't sound so great to say the two part time workers he hired for the event were incompetent. Better to say his "staff".... :-)

In any case, full time staff or just low level temp workers, it's completely unacceptable to blame them for a screw up. That is a huge red flag.

--PP
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #1592
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Sorry guys, but I'm with Jason on this part of it. I have absolutely nothing to do with this other than reading a few hundred posts and being fascinated that this is all being aired publicly. But Kilowatt came into this thread and took it over with very pointed and personal accusations which he appears to have very little factual information to back up. Attacking someone the way Kilowatt did based on "hunches" and a "vibe" he got is bull****. He came off like a bully. If I was Jason I woud have nothing to do with the guy either. Screw sending him money as a 3rd party. Kilowatt had nothing to do with this and made himself a part of the story by posting a crapload of accusations over and over. He should back the f off and let these guys work out their situation on their own. My .02.
Good posting

Whole lotta poker players who don't understand SB posting ad nauseam

lol @ the notion of giving money to charity as opposed to settling debts as well

Angle-shooters gonna angle-shoot I guess

1. Drag heels on payment
2. Come up with defense for non payment
3. Profit - I mean 'donate' to lolcharity

Good to see that all these bystanders w/ nothing at stake are looking out for the needy and downtrodden

MM you know you're violating the code and just looking for a way out of a debt
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:05 PM   #1593
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Assani has never come off better fwiw
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:09 PM   #1594
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

To simplify further -

If MM had won would CY have owed, regardless of time-frame, MM monies?

If MM had lost would CY be owed, regardless of time-frame, MM monies?

MM already exhibited that the scenario of delayed payment would be necessary

What's the big deal of CY exhibiting the same requirement?
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:36 PM   #1595
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish View Post
To simplify further -

If MM had won would CY have owed, regardless of time-frame, MM monies?

If MM had lost would CY be owed, regardless of time-frame, MM monies?

MM already exhibited that the scenario of delayed payment would be necessary

What's the big deal of CY exhibiting the same requirement?
dafaq?
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:56 PM   #1596
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Where's the confusion?

Whoever lost owed the other money

Who had what available to pay at what point is somewhat irrelevant

If you take into account that MM was unable to pay, it becomes even more irrelevant if arguing from the MM perspective
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:32 PM   #1597
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Have you even read the thread?
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:45 PM   #1598
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

A well respected 2+2'er came by yesterday and we had a nice talk. I openly shared some things that I'm pretty sure he will be in at some point to post his thoughts.

I'm confident he will be able to confirm that I had $ in march-June of 2012 I'm the sole owner of my establishment and there was in fact someone else involved and I was not personally taking any action other than what I was doing knowingly in the thread etc
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:03 PM   #1599
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Old 11-06-2013, 07:06 PM   #1600
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
A well respected 2+2'er came by yesterday and we had a nice talk. I openly shared some things that I'm pretty sure he will be in at some point to post his thoughts.

I'm confident he will be able to confirm that I had $ in march-June of 2012 I'm the sole owner of my establishment and there was in fact someone else involved and I was not personally taking any action other than what I was doing knowingly in the thread etc
Good news for you, if true. We shall see
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