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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-03-2013, 10:22 AM   #1451
TheRiverSniper
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
I admit that it is pretty bad form from JY if he did actually do it; Accepting it's true, I suppose it shows me just how much of a low-life, weasel, scumbag, broke a$$ degenerate JY is.
fyp

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormblower View Post
I get that part. I don't understand why he's taking on the bookie's debts and making payouts.
There is no bookie

Quote:
Originally Posted by vazdog33 View Post
What is so unbelievably disgusting about JY contacting PS is JY himself owes out quite a few bucks himself....and was in no position to pay had MM won.
Ding Ding. Obviously by Jason's actions, his restaurant should be fair game to those he owes. Reap what you sow.

Last edited by TheRiverSniper; 11-03-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:26 AM   #1452
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
exactly.

Look at Jason's post, he clearly states he paid Chris' bet. Yet he owed ak87 and assani amounts before/around the time of Chris' bet which were not paid out.
That is incorrect. AK87 confirmed his bet took place in October, same as the sheets bet. This is consistent with Jason Young's story and once again contradicts Moneymaker's OP.

Seems to me Moneymaker placed a bet he couldn't honor and then 6 months later found an angle to try and get out of it. Once this was going to be exposed here he got out ahead of it with half truths and misleading information to make himself look better.

Moneymaker also made an OP outing a scammer friend of his who he now apparently hangs around with again, and who he helped facilitate a trade with on these forums in a rather non-transparent manner.

This does not absolve Jason Young of the October debts and the Assani situation. He also looks scummy, communicates about as well as a ten year old, and has a really ****ty attitude considering the circumstances.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #1453
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I would advise all of jason's creditors to contact him at work and ask where their money is.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:06 AM   #1454
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu View Post
That is incorrect. AK87 confirmed his bet took place in October, same as the sheets bet. This is consistent with Jason Young's story and once again contradicts Moneymaker's OP.

Seems to me Moneymaker placed a bet he couldn't honor and then 6 months later found an angle to try and get out of it. Once this was going to be exposed here he got out ahead of it with half truths and misleading information to make himself look better.

Moneymaker also made an OP outing a scammer friend of his who he now apparently hangs around with again, and who he helped facilitate a trade with on these forums in a rather non-transparent manner.

This does not absolve Jason Young of the October debts and the Assani situation. He also looks scummy, communicates about as well as a ten year old, and has a really ****ty attitude considering the circumstances.
I don't see anywhere on this thread, anyone defending Chris' past actions. Stop trying to make that the case. Apparently the timeline is off, so here:

April
Jason Young couldn't pay April debt to now confirmed Assani (which was conveniently his own bet and not through bookie)

May
Moneymaker loses 14-20k in NHL/sports related bets. Figure varies from Monkeymaker/Jason's version. Jason also attests an additional 5k in online money loans to Money were made.

May
Jason Young, not being able to pay Assani 2k for whatever reason, is able to front 20k+ to his bookie for Moneymakers debt.

Summer
Jason Young invests heavily into a restaurant called The Turn, and admits this effectively ties up all his liquidity.

October
Jason Young took at least 2 more bets that won against his bookie totaling over 20k (ak 14k and sheets 7-8k). No one knows if other bets were taken and paid for that lost against this bookie.

late October?
Bookie skips town, screws Jason Young as he feels obligated to pay these guys. He initiates a payment plan and is in constant contact with all of them (according to Jason)

One year passes
- Of these two bets which were made around the time the bookie skipped whom Jason feels loyal too, only one has been apparently paid back ($500 over 1 year out of 7-8k, which equates to roughly less than $50 a month).
- ak87 did not post any info of being paid back
- Assani stated that it has been very hard to contact Jason Young and provided evidence of Jason Young being difficult to contact. He has not been paid anything back either, and apparently Jason needs to work out a payment plan with him as well.

The above is all factual according to this thread, and the ONLY part that is speculative is the existence of a bookie.

This brings up two conclusions about Jason Young's character:
1) Assuming Jason Young is telling the truth of an existing bookie, and is acting only as a super loyal agent who feels responsible for the bookie, questions arise. Such as, why would one feel obligated to pay bettors who he doesn't seem to have a long history with. ak87 and sheets by all their posts in this thread, indicate they don't know Jason personally well on any level.

Jason also states he has a long history of being scammed before. For him to not learn from his mistakes to the point of asking Moneymaker for 15-20k to pay his bookie, instead of blindly trusting him and fronting money. This either makes him the most trusting person in poker, or borderline ******ed.

2) Assuming Jason Young is lying about there being a bookie, and booked the bets himself, he is a scumbag and intended for the losses to outweigh the wins. This is actually much more common than the first instance, so much so that many people in this thread called it out. When it didn't work out that way, he attempted to cover his tracks by placing the blame on Moneymaker.

Moneymaker
- None of this changes or excuses the fact Moneymaker is a sports degen who would've either slow paid (if you believe that he paid back 2 of his outstanding debts after Main Event win) or skipped the bet entirely.

Anyone who looks up to Main Event champions has big problems with their values system. The only reason people are disagreeing with Moneymaker paying is due to the fact if he lost, he would be on the list of sheets, ak87, assani of unpaid bettors Jason had business with. Keep in mind 2+2 isn't as pervasive as some may believe - it's quite possible live poker players took bets with Jason who haven't posted here and haven't been paid out.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #1455
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

^^

One thing you did not include in the timeline is Moneymaker's claim that JY was already telling people his boss had skipped town around the time of Moneymaker's bets.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:19 AM   #1456
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
I would advise all of jason's creditors to contact him at work and ask where their money is.
Agreed.

Or stand outside the restaurant with picket signs.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:31 AM   #1457
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
Fantastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
I don't see anywhere on this thread, anyone defending Chris' past actions. Stop trying to make that the case. Apparently the timeline is off, so here:

April
Jason Young couldn't pay April debt to now confirmed Assani (which was conveniently his own bet and not through bookie)

May
Moneymaker loses 14-20k in NHL/sports related bets. Figure varies from Monkeymaker/Jason's version. Jason also attests an additional 5k in online money loans to Money were made.

May
Jason Young, not being able to pay Assani 2k for whatever reason, is able to front 20k+ to his bookie for Moneymakers debt.

Summer
Jason Young invests heavily into a restaurant called The Turn, and admits this effectively ties up all his liquidity.

October
Jason Young took at least 2 more bets that won against his bookie totaling over 20k (ak 14k and sheets 7-8k). No one knows if other bets were taken and paid for that lost against this bookie.

late October?
Bookie skips town, screws Jason Young as he feels obligated to pay these guys. He initiates a payment plan and is in constant contact with all of them (according to Jason)

One year passes
- Of these two bets which were made around the time the bookie skipped whom Jason feels loyal too, only one has been apparently paid back ($500 over 1 year out of 7-8k, which equates to roughly less than $50 a month).
- ak87 did not post any info of being paid back
- Assani stated that it has been very hard to contact Jason Young and provided evidence of Jason Young being difficult to contact. He has not been paid anything back either, and apparently Jason needs to work out a payment plan with him as well.

The above is all factual according to this thread, and the ONLY part that is speculative is the existence of a bookie.

This brings up two conclusions about Jason Young's character:
1) Assuming Jason Young is telling the truth of an existing bookie, and is acting only as a super loyal agent who feels responsible for the bookie, questions arise. Such as, why would one feel obligated to pay bettors who he doesn't seem to have a long history with. ak87 and sheets by all their posts in this thread, indicate they don't know Jason personally well on any level.

Jason also states he has a long history of being scammed before. For him to not learn from his mistakes to the point of asking Moneymaker for 15-20k to pay his bookie, instead of blindly trusting him and fronting money. This either makes him the most trusting person in poker, or borderline ******ed.

2) Assuming Jason Young is lying about there being a bookie, and booked the bets himself, he is a scumbag and intended for the losses to outweigh the wins. This is actually much more common than the first instance, so much so that many people in this thread called it out. When it didn't work out that way, he attempted to cover his tracks by placing the blame on Moneymaker.

Moneymaker
- None of this changes or excuses the fact Moneymaker is a sports degen who would've either slow paid (if you believe that he paid back 2 of his outstanding debts after Main Event win) or skipped the bet entirely.

Anyone who looks up to Main Event champions has big problems with their values system. The only reason people are disagreeing with Moneymaker paying is due to the fact if he lost, he would be on the list of sheets, ak87, assani of unpaid bettors Jason had business with. Keep in mind 2+2 isn't as pervasive as some may believe - it's quite possible live poker players took bets with Jason who haven't posted here and haven't been paid out.
Great post, thanks.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:44 AM   #1458
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Bundy I have admitted mistakes and I will pay for those mistakes in rep and also by giving the money I lost to charity. Why are you still here fighting? Are you Jason's friend, he owe you money or jason himself. Don't understand why you want him paid so bad when I know I was freerolled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I appreciate all you guys have opinions and want the whole story and want to debate about it. I was personally involved obv and know what happened. I could of easily paid jason and been done instead of taking this line. I am paying the money out to a charity as I think that is best course because I was wrong during this time as well and need to pay up.

If jason can somehow prove to ME not you guys he had cash in May (my timeline was wrong as I made the bets in may not April) or somehow prove the bookie is real as he told me they were in business for 5 years at one point or show me the computer betting sheets of the people I pmed him about I will do what I said 2000 posts ago. I will pay him and apologize. I have requested this and got no answer just a phone call with promises and assurances.

As for the text messages he posted they don't bother me that they public. I am a big boy in more ways than one and I am also human and I overextended myself for awhile with loans. I have tried to learned that lesson and don't loan or borrow anymore with anyone. But that's my issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
As for the thread I will leave it for you guys to debate and will only look for ideas on charities.

Make a wish is the first one I have choosen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
During that time I only knew of one balance jason owed and he assured me he was on top of it and paying him his balance. I don't like owing anyone money and felt like **** with my given situation. I was promised from 4 people I would have my loans repaid during that period. It was a lot of money and between that and series run bad I was gambling broke. Again I am human and make mistakes as I did in this situation that's why I am paying to make right
I don't have much experience w/ psychology, but I'd enjoy hearing from some who do... Chris has to be out of his mind, no? Does he truly believe these things? Do he really not know that he's a bad, degenerate gambler? Or does he know deep down? These kind of people intrigue me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Chris, aren't you broke right now? How are you going to come up with 20k to pay this charity? And if you aren't broke, isn't that going to be a healthy percentage of your cash net worth right now?

I suggest you forget the charity angle and just get your own life in order.

But if you really do want to donate $20k to charity in lieu of paying Jason, make sure it is in YOUR name, so you can get the writeoff instead of him.

Also, tax tip for you:

If you were a net loser in gambling in 2013, I suggest waiting until January to make the donation, as that will allow you to write it off your 2014 taxes. If you had no taxable income in 2013, definietly wait until 2014, as that's just 2 months away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
Not sure if this was supposed to be funny.

Chris Moneymaker is an accountant remember?

ITT poker players giving accountants tax advice.
Chris he doesn't come off like an accomplished accountant. Based on how he's spoken itt, I would NEVER use him for anything business related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
Hi there.
Great post. 47k +. Kudos.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:46 AM   #1459
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
There is no bookie
Yeah that's obviously the implication. I was giving an opportunity for him to provide an alternative explanation - I can't think of one.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #1460
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by MakeBelieve View Post
lol Ted, you must be his mother.
His name is Al
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:26 PM   #1461
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
I don't have much experience w/ psychology, but I'd enjoy hearing from some who do... Chris has to be out of his mind, no? Does he truly believe these things? Do he really not know that he's a bad, degenerate gambler? Or does he know deep down? These kind of people intrigue me.


Throwing this out there as just a possibility that seems to make some kind of sense:

Chris is arguing that he was gamble broke, not broke, and always said he owed. It seems like he always had the intentions of honoring the bets, he just had a gambling problem and had to find a way to deal with it without the wife knowing. That issue is between Chris and his wife but his actions seem like an "honorable" guy who simply has a gambling problem with no liquid money at the time he made the bet.

Chris also appears to have reliable future income, for obvious reasons. Re: his Stake/Loan comments/texts, This may not be the case and he may not wish to publicly discuss it, but it's relatively common for sponsored pros who get free-rolled into events to seek a backing deal for those events for a more guaranteed stream of income. This is what he possibly meant.


Jason has clearly tried to extort/blackmail Chris into paying, threatening to release those texts as well as going to Stars. He also seems to have absolutely no problem with telling anyone he owes money to that Chris owes him and it's not his fault. This is obviously absurd and deluded as well as simply very scummy to use a person's fame as leverage and deflection. Having absolutely no problem with publicly outing Chris while refusing to discuss even privately ANY details about the bookie is sketchy/wrong at best, and a completely fictitious planned scam at the worst.



To me it seems like it's certainly plausible that Chris is a good intentioned, honorable guy with a gambling problem and some explaining to do to his wife, while Jason possibly seems to be a broke scumbag with a personality disorder

Last edited by THAY3R; 11-03-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:35 PM   #1462
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

//// Thread
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:38 PM   #1463
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I need to ask a very simple and serious question that might be made fun of...

But what happens if Moneymaker doesn't pay? Is there a law in the US forcing him to pay bets made by an invisible bookie?

And again, these people have extreme gambling problems. They are degenerates. I have no idea why everyone is getting so worked up about this. An accountant won't pay to a ****ty restaurant owner some gambling debts. Boohoo.

But if there's one person I'm siding with, it's MM because of how low JY was with the ratting out. He actually contacted the EMPLOYERS of somebody. That's horrible. Then put up screen shots of text messages. Then let his wife know. What they had was personal.

Now MM won't get laid and will have to live next to his angry wife forever.

Good job Jason.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:42 PM   #1464
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Re: Moneymaker drama BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post


Moneymaker aka Dunlap lost over 20k NOT directly to me and bought online monies from me equaling a total of just under 25k owed to me.
I have read roughly 85% of this thread and this is something I haven't seen discussed. There has been a lot of debate as to whether it is a 15k debt or a 25k debt in question. The difference seems to to lay in these bought online monies?
Being a bit of a noob I am not exactly sure what that transaction entails. JY I don't believe has mentioned this again other than in his original post quoted above.
Anyone have a feel as to what this entails and would CM or JY like to extrapolate on this more.?

This would have nothing to do with free rolling or alleged bookies real or not?

Seems like 10k of this debt (which cm admittedly hasn't admitted to) shouldn't have anything to do with the free roll/ real bookie/ fake bookie controversy.

Don't believe this has been talked about. .

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

Comments from the principals?
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:43 PM   #1465
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CursedbyaGypsy View Post
I need to ask a very simple and serious question that might be made fun of...

But what happens if Moneymaker doesn't pay? Is there a law in the US forcing him to pay bets made by an invisible bookie?

And again, these people have extreme gambling problems. They are degenerates. I have no idea why everyone is getting so worked up about this. An accountant won't pay to a ****ty restaurant owner some gambling debts. Boohoo.

But if there's one person I'm siding with, it's MM because of how low JY was with the ratting out. He actually contacted the EMPLOYERS of somebody. That's horrible. Then put up screen shots of text messages. Then let his wife know. What they had was personal.

Now MM won't get laid and will have to live next to his angry wife forever.

Good job Jason.
If the bets were placed in a state where gambling is illegal then the collection of those gambling debts is unenforceable.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:56 PM   #1466
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I hope MM just leaves this thread, does not pay the money to charity or anyone else and just gets on with his life. I hope JY tells the people who claim he owes them money that it is the bookie who stiffed them, not him, gives them the name of the bookie, stops hassling MM and gets on with his life and makes a success of his restaurant business.

(Except for the chap who made a bet directly with JY and is owed a couple k, who gets paid soon)

Last edited by WAtR; 11-03-2013 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #1467
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

waiting for a PM reply from Kilowatt still(I'm not being impatient at all, just posting ITT so people know I'm staying on top of things and doing my part). Once he replies with banking info I'll text that to Jason.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:21 PM   #1468
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by THAY3R View Post
That issue is between Chris and his wife but his actions seem like an "honorable" guy who simply has a gambling problem with no liquid money at the time he made the bet.
THAY3R - I'm sure everyone itt values your take and I agree w/ most of it, but I'm surprised at the quote above... Isn't a guy w/ a gambling problem who makes bets when he has no money the opposite of "honorable" ??

I agree w/ you that Jason is a scumbag liar, but I also think Chris is a delusional degenerate gambler. I never got that impression meeting him, playing next to him or speaking to him. In fact I always got the impression that he was a stand up guy. However his own words have to trump my opinions and assumptions.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:27 PM   #1469
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Ted/Al/King Kong Bundy (JY's Mom),

You once asked what was the circumstantial reasons that made JY's story implausible to many of us. Simply read the posts by Kilowatt, Assani, and GameoverJC and any reasonable person would conclude that JY was busto and there was no bookie. They have pretty well covered it. Hence it was a free roll and there is no obligation on MM's part to pay this faux "bet". In addition, JY is very vague about the bookie for good reason. The limited amount of info he has disclosed does not jive with what many of us know about the traditional bookie/agent relationship. Quite honestly, he is full of **** on what he has said. Lastly, he has had 18 months to meet personally with CM to alleviate CM's concerns that this was NOT a free roll. He could have met CM in private with his phone, laptop, emails, skype's, bank statements, and betting sheets. He could have done it in private between the 2 of them. Why didnt he? Because he couldnt. The only reasonable conclusion was that he was not solvent and he had no evidence of the bookie or the "bets". And now we have the alleged Pstars story to add to the mix. The other people he owes. The restaurant/bar that he sunk his money into. The 5k poker tournament appearance. The picture is pretty clear to everyone but you and Jason.

Last edited by TheRiverSniper; 11-03-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:34 PM   #1470
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Man, some of you guys came in late but managed to **** this thread up.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:41 PM   #1471
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
THAY3R - I'm sure everyone itt values your take and I agree w/ most of it, but I'm surprised at the quote above... Isn't a guy w/ a gambling problem who makes bets when he has no money the opposite of "honorable" ??

I agree w/ you that Jason is a scumbag liar, but I also think Chris is a delusional degenerate gambler. I never got that impression meeting him, playing next to him or speaking to him. In fact I always got the impression that he was a stand up guy. However his own words have to trump my opinions and assumptions.
I agree that is why I said "honorable", Chris has certainly made mistakes. I may be personally biased due to my own experiences but I think there's a difference morally between being a degen/addict with a problem and being a scammer. Intent matters, as well as future earning ability of those making bets. That certainly doesn't absolve Chris of his actions but his side seems much more understandable and relatable and the fact that he's willing to admit his problems and that he made a bet that he lost *but doesn't think JY should get it without further research is at least respectable.

In fact I think if JY was "honest" about being the bookie from the moment he went broke he might even have more sympathy and support!
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Old 11-03-2013, 02:06 PM   #1472
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

To me it's a situation where the tie goes to the bookie.

If a bookie accepts $500,000 worth of bets on credit from 100 different people, it's not a requirement that the bookie has $500,000 in liquid cash. About half the bets will tend to be losers so some leverage is allowed there.

But if I make 5 bets for $5,000 each on credit, I should have $25,000 liquid ready to pay in a reasonable amount of time. Because there is a real chance I'll lose all five.

I've never used an illegal bookie but I imagine collecting is a pain in the ass, and you'll always have guys that owe you, and maybe some guys you owe as a result. You can't just say the book is insolvent because someone is owed money. In the big picture, you're essentially all just paying into a pool, and about half of those bets get paid out.

I realize this probably isn't a bookie with 100 different people betting, and maybe he was just laying the bets off somewhere else. But to me the principle still holds that the book is allowed to have less liquid cash than their total liability, and you've still got action, and the bettor should pay if he loses. There are advantages to being a bookie compared to being a degen, and that just seems like one of them.

I'm not saying it's a smart operation, but if I was mediator, I'd say the bettor owes the money to the bookie (and not a charity, though I think it's a nice gesture).
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:12 PM   #1473
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Haven't had much time this weekend, but just responded to Assani with the info I think he needs to have Jason send the $ to me, so hopefully this will be handled soon. I will update this thread with any money I get.
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #1474
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
I don't have much experience w/ psychology, but I'd enjoy hearing from some who do... Chris has to be out of his mind, no? Does he truly believe these things? Do he really not know that he's a bad, degenerate gambler? Or does he know deep down? These kind of people intrigue me.


Chris he doesn't come off like an accomplished accountant. Based on how he's spoken itt, I would NEVER use him for anything business related.



Great post. 47k +. Kudos.
Hey this games fun. Someone do me next.


Obv rly horrible posting by the guy I quoted imo.
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:29 PM   #1475
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Obv rly horrible posting by the guy I quoted imo.
Just wanted to take a moment to bask in the glory of this hypocrisy.
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