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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-24-2013, 12:52 PM   #51
TheRiverSniper
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
This is my last post on the thread as I have said my piece.
Looks like someone is exiting the thread. Not usually a good sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Not really looking for opinions.
Yet you posted in a public forum trying to justify your actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I am not saying Jason is a scammer.
Backing off allegations, as more info will be coming out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I know he started a restaurant in ny and believe he did have a boss that walked out on him or he was doing this as a side fig and got killed by some people.
Trying to make peace with JY as we await his retort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
One guy told me a year and half ago that Jason paid him 500 of the 8k he is owed.
More anonymous "guys" to help buttress his crumbling case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Its been over two years now and if I had won I would not have gotten paid.
Let's just forget the whole thing. Especially the part where you owe 15k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I was being freerolled.
Actually you were the apparent freeroller here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
In 10 years this is the only debt I never paid and I firmly believe I am in the right here and therefore am not paying
I never cheated anyone in 10 years. If you don't count this time. See Girah scandal.



**** Sounds like a case for Judge Viffer.

Last edited by TheRiverSniper; 10-24-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:55 PM   #52
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

If Chris can prove that the was getting freerolled, then he should not pay.
If Jason Young can not prove that this "bookie" really existed and Jason owed a lot of money to other people at the same time, then Chris should not pay.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:55 PM   #53
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Land Of The Free? View Post
What if (and I'm not saying that's the situation here) you had proof beyond reasonable doubt that the guy you owe was planning not to pay you if you'd lost?
What if he was planning to pay when the bet was made, but didnt have the money after? What if he was planning to pay with money from someone else, and that person died after the bet was made?

The problem with speculating is that you can come up with a bunch of different scenarios why you might not pay. You can always find some friends that think you shouldnt. There are things that might come to light that you dont like. But the fact is, a bet was made between two people, and outside influences shouldnt alter that bet unless they directly impact it.
If you think the guy is shady, if you find out he owes other people, then pay him the debt you owe, tell others about him, and dont do business with him again.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:56 PM   #54
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by BEANO52 View Post
Yeah, Pay up and let Jason deal with his own problems.

this
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #55
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Who cares if this jason guy has other debts? Pay the man, never do business with him again. Gg wp.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:00 PM   #56
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Moneymaker is a welcher. Confirmed!!!
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:02 PM   #57
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Neither one of you has posted any evidence proving any of your claims. Now would be the time to do so.

You both look terrible right now, especially CM saying you don't intend to post any further in the thread you started as soon as the other guy shows up to defend himself.

@JY now would be the time to get your references into the thread and specify the dates that CM lost the money to you and the dates that you lost money to anyone else you haven't paid (if you were relying on CM paying up to pay these debts that seems fine, but if you refused to pay before making the bets with CM then that doesn't seem fine)
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:09 PM   #58
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

can they do an escrow?
When everyone that owes money puts that amount in the escrow, only then does it get paid out.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:11 PM   #59
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzitup View Post
What if he was planning to pay when the bet was made, but didnt have the money after? What if he was planning to pay with money from someone else, and that person died after the bet was made?

The problem with speculating is that you can come up with a bunch of different scenarios why you might not pay. You can always find some friends that think you shouldnt. There are things that might come to light that you dont like. But the fact is, a bet was made between two people, and outside influences shouldnt alter that bet unless they directly impact it.
If you think the guy is shady, if you find out he owes other people, then pay him the debt you owe, tell others about him, and dont do business with him again.
I was asking from a moral standpoint, just curious what people think. I believe it should come down to intention; there's a huge difference between the guy meaning to pay but getting robbed for everything he has, and the guy planning to freeroll you straight from the start.

Obviously you're never really going to have that clear a situation, but I think if you believe there are theoretical situations in which one wouldn't owe the money, you should probably consider that there are real-life situations that approach those theretical situations enough to warrant steering away from the "you made a bet, you have to pay no matter what" mentality.

Also obvious is that anything more than a single-branched decision tree leads to potential crazy angle-shooting, so...in the end, I think you just need fairly unbiased arbitrators with good reasoning skills who can wade through all of the available information (betting history from both people, current financial situation, basically potential incentives not to pay, etc...) and make a decision based on all of those factors.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:13 PM   #60
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzitup View Post
So CM is screwing himself over by not paying a debt, because he "thinks" that if he had won, he might not have gotten paid?

That's a pretty easy reverse freeroll. "I bet you $10k, because if I lose, I am not going to pay, because if I win, I don't think you are going to pay"!
exactly. Moneymaker looks like pond scum here. Pathetic. Far more of poker players are true scum than any other profession imo. NEVER EVER trust a poker player unless they are blood or in your inner circle.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:13 PM   #61
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratslla View Post
Who cares if this jason guy has other debts? Pay the man, never do business with him again. Gg wp.
don't you get the point? moneymaker thinks that if he had won, he wouldn't had seen any of the money so he feels the other guy was freerrolling, based in other guys he knows experiences, so why paying him?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #62
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
Neither one of you has posted any evidence proving any of your claims. Now would be the time to do so.

You both look terrible right now, especially CM saying you don't intend to post any further in the thread you started as soon as the other guy shows up to defend himself.

@JY now would be the time to get your references into the thread and specify the dates that CM lost the money to you and the dates that you lost money to anyone else you haven't paid (if you were relying on CM paying up to pay these debts that seems fine, but if you refused to pay before making the bets with CM then that doesn't seem fine)
To be fair, CM may not have known JY posted. JY started a completely separate thread which I merged into this one. So CM posted in this thread, THEN I merged the JY thread into this one, making it appear as if JY posted ITT just before CM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:17 PM   #63
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Pay that man his money, Chris.

Willing to let this play out and risk PS sponsorship over $15K - $20K?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:18 PM   #64
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
Neither one of you has posted any evidence proving any of your claims. Now would be the time to do so.
This... I mean both of your are bringing up all these people who clearly have the ability to facilitate with determining the truths... yet no one has offered anything yet. If people are owed money by JY... what is stopping them from making mention of it to support CM & put some pressure on JY to pay? And JY the 100 people who can vouch... okay how about a few for now, who can shed light on the situation in question?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:22 PM   #65
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzitup View Post
So CM is screwing himself over by not paying a debt, because he "thinks" that if he had won, he might not have gotten paid?

That's a pretty easy reverse freeroll. "I bet you $10k, because if I lose, I am not going to pay, because if I win, I don't think you are going to pay"!
ASSUMING WHAT CHRIS SAID WAS 100% TRUE... Then Chris went in thinking JY would be legit and found out facts after betting which would have let him to believe he was being freerolled.

Of course now we have JY side of the story and need to know what the facts are. I think the best solution would be Chris paying JY's creditors.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:22 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boot Room View Post
don't you get the point? moneymaker thinks that if he had won, he wouldn't had seen any of the money so he feels the other guy was freerrolling, based in other guys he knows experiences, so why paying him?
Umm ofc i understand that. But whatever, they made some sort of contract, chris lost and has to pay for it. Noone will ever know what would've happened if chris won.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:29 PM   #67
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPB383 View Post
ASSUMING WHAT CHRIS SAID WAS 100% TRUE... Then Chris went in thinking JY would be legit and found out facts after betting which would have let him to believe he was being freerolled.

Of course now we have JY side of the story and need to know what the facts are. I think the best solution would be Chris paying JY's creditors.
I haven't seen a single fact, and I think it's unlikely we will. We have CM's speculation and second hand info from "this guy or that guy".

Which, to me, is all irrelevant anyway. Allowing CM to decide based on anything not to do with the bet between JY and CM, is allowing CM the ability to freeroll. And that sets a bad precedent.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:31 PM   #68
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Re: Moneymaker drama BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post

During the scandal Jason sent me a pm saying he worked for a guy that ran a book and offered to set me up.

By this time jJason was telling me his boss was giving him tons of heat and I need to pay immediately or he would post on 2+2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
Moneymaker aka Dunlap lost over 20k NOT directly to me and bought online monies from me equaling a total of just under 25k owed to me.


Fast Forward to a situation where a few people that I had dealt with in the past won $ NOT from me but from someone I vouched for.

So was Jason an agent or just vouching for a friend?

Jason,


Is the person attempting to collect from CM the same person who owes the others money?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:31 PM   #69
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
As I am sitting in airport headed home I get a Skype message from another guy that used to bet in the forum. He asked if Jason owed me money and I responded that I owed him. He told me Jason has owed him 18k for a few weeks and hadn't paid and asked I pay him instead of Jason. I told him at that time I would not pay Jason and pay him. When I got home I stalled paying Jason to see how the situation would shake out. Over the next 2 months 2 other people I know messaged me asking if Jason owed me money. I gave them dame answer that I owed him. The total thathe owed the 3 guys was over 40k.
Chris,

How did these guys know that you owed Jason money?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:33 PM   #70
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Am I wrong or does Jason actually say that he owes the guys who called Chris the money? If so, both options, paying Jason or these anonymous callers, are open for Chris to pay HIS debt. This is even a normal legal procedure. And the feeling of Chris that he would not get paid had he won some money is not a reason to justify not paying at all. That's clearly wrong. That way of reasoning is the argument of the greedy man.... "No man, I won't pay you because you would not have paid me vice versa." And even if this feeling is justified, it's no ground for keeping the money which is not yours.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:34 PM   #71
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

ok im going to throw in my 2 cents but before i do I will make it very clear that jason is one of my best friends.....so with that being put out in the open you can choose to believe or not believe what you want to

i knew all about this whole situation from the very beginning and ive seen everything evolve.....all i can say for 100% certainty is that i know for a fact that at NO time was jason EVER freerolling chris....EVER.....with that being said.....i know for a fact that both jason and chris have both been scammed/cheated out of money in the past....and as a result of all the shadiness that has gone on with others it has clearly soured chris and given him reason to believe jason could have been scamming him as well...and i too wouldnt have any desire to pay someone if i believed i was being freerolled...HOWEVER...this was not a freeroll.....this i am certain of and its really a shame that all the scum who have stolen and schemed from chris and others in the past are now causing someone honest (jason) to get stiffed and someone else to have their reputation dragged through the mud (chris).....the right thing to do is pay jason and move on....he would have paid you ....this i am sure of
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:34 PM   #72
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratslla View Post
Umm ofc i understand that. But whatever, they made some sort of contract, chris lost and has to pay for it. Noone will ever know what would've happened if chris won.
+1

The reasoning I lost but I don´t pay you because if I had won you probably would not pay me seems really wrong!
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:36 PM   #73
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Well.. it looks like Chris already made up his mind and is not paying.. Thought he was posting on here to get some objective opinions so that he can make a decision.. Guess not
All these dramas just really make me think of is how broke everyone in poker is or eventually gets and can't even afford to pay or lose a ~20k debt
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:36 PM   #74
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

for the record: ive been staying on top of this for the past 1.5 years to not collect a single cent for myself- its only to pay out people that are owed.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:44 PM   #75
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly Caveat View Post
Chris,

How did these guys know that you owed Jason money?
Quote:
He asked if Jason owed me money and I responded that I owed him.
...


CM,

In the future, don't offer to pay someone's debt.
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