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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2013, 10:36 AM   #501
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
Alright guys...we have reached an agreement- I had a long post to try and answer some of the ridiculous questions in here. Some of you guys just choose not to read, or it will never be enough- even more of the reason im glad this is all over with.

And it will be mentioned that like I said all along, I was never scamming anyone, I wasn't this "boss" person, my timeline was correct that in between the 2 instances let me remind you guys that I opened a substantial business- which again is why my liquid cash wasn't available to handle 2nd situation. I got screwed just as much as anyone, and ive been simply trying to make things right with all parties to move forward...and I believe that is happening now.

as for chris- I was always a fan as well as many of you are. But even outside of that I believe him to be a good genuine guy, him and I have had many conversations about everything ranging from poker, and sports to my business, our families and our mutual hatred of being taken advantage of. I don't feel like he had bad intentions ever, and he is incredibly jaded by that world and people in general, as am I...

there are no hard feelings, and we will probably have a beer out in vegas next time I see him...
So let me guess. After you took this sordid mess public to squeeze CM for a "settlement", you are now going to clam up, not answer questions, and not reveal the settlement, and go on your merry way?
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:44 AM   #502
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
(guy who still hasn't answered any of the pertinent questions that have been put to him itt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
im not gonna respond to every dumb question or from complete randoms that i have no clue who you are- so this will be the only time that happens...

Odysseus...Obviously we are the dumb ones asking dumb questions. We are complete randoms who he doesn't know so of course we don't deserve answers to pertinent questions. Obviously we are the dumb ones who put all of our net worth in a restaurant even though still owing debts to other people...oh wait...that last part wasn't us.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:47 AM   #503
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

As Jason stated we have reached an agreement. I talked to a lot of people the last few days including sheets and jason. I may be gullible or an easy target but I am giving jason the benifit of the doubt based solely on his reputation in the past. His past reputation by all accounts is impecable. He has stayed in contact with the 3 guys I know he owes and is working to pay them off over a year later. My money will be going to that purpose and not to jason himself. I still know my timeline and my reasons for not paying are accurate and acceptable however jason has been around the poker world a long time and I couldn't find one person he has wronged outside of this situation. Based on that I am paying the money
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:47 AM   #504
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
I got screwed just as much as anyone
Ha. You took bets you could not afford to pay. You are a freerolling scumbag. Hopefully Chris comes to his senses and doesnt pay you.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:58 AM   #505
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Glad it got worked out. Didn't really think Jason was trying to screw anyone from the get-go.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:04 AM   #506
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
It does not leave JY responsible to pay the winning players or collect from the losing players. An agents only job is to collect and payout for the bookmaker by using the bookmakers money. That's why JY's story doesn't make any sense. He was clearly running this operation on his own, got jammed up and came up with a story that didn't add up.

Think about it... If you were an agent and you had 4 players that won a combined $65K in a week and one losing player who lost $15k... If the "boss" disappeared, In no way are you responsible as an agent for coming up with the money. An agent is a runner that's it. JY should have called everyone who he was dealing with and told them the "boss" disappeared, here's his name, phone number, etc... I can't pay you but hopefully you can work something out with him... As far as MM goes he's in the clear until each owed player he spoke to comes forward and either says that the "boss" or JY paid them... Then at that point if I am MM I am sending the $15k.
This is so ridiculously wrong. An agent and a runner two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other. Why are people commenting here who don't have a clue on how these things work?
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:12 AM   #507
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

And nice condescending post Jason. It was you guys who made this issue public, dont forget. I think youre a shady dude at best.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #508
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

1. Glad you two made an agreement.. I think...
2. Jason as a public service will you give the name of your book so the public is aware to stay away from him/her?
3. dunlap do you plan on having that beer?
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:30 AM   #509
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xalas View Post
2. Jason as a public service will you give the name of your book so the public is aware to stay away from him/her?
He doesn't answer questions.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:32 AM   #510
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
Public poll added. We will see how you voted.
The problem with public polls is that they ask the public, which is generally made up of less than intelligent people. It's a shame polling (and voting for that matter) isn't limited to smart people.

Rut roh.

Also as previously state, hopefully this thread teaches people not to play with large sums of money that they can't afford to lose, repay, etc. And that if they'd like to bet on sports, to use their brains before doing so. I can't imagine Chris doesn't know a dozen people who can place bets for him in LV and text him screenshots of the receipts, etc. Jason, don't middle action that you can't afford to middle. Actually just don't take bets at all. And don't invest in restaurants either.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:56 AM   #511
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I feel so good that a settlement has been reached. Now Jason can get back to taking bets with money he does not have, and MM can place sport bets on credit with shady characters who won't pay him.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:00 PM   #512
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
As Jason stated we have reached an agreement. I talked to a lot of people the last few days including sheets and jason. I may be gullible or an easy target but I am giving jason the benifit of the doubt based solely on his reputation in the past. His past reputation by all accounts is impecable. He has stayed in contact with the 3 guys I know he owes and is working to pay them off over a year later. My money will be going to that purpose and not to jason himself. I still know my timeline and my reasons for not paying are accurate and acceptable however jason has been around the poker world a long time and I couldn't find one person he has wronged outside of this situation. Based on that I am paying the money
Well played MM, you just gain another fan. But most of all you leave with your dignity. Smart Move and Good Luck!
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:24 PM   #513
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
I feel so good that a settlement has been reached. Now Jason can get back to taking bets with money he does not have, and MM can place sport bets on credit with shady characters who won't pay him. And the recreational players which make up/ feed the community are none the wiser. Not dissimilar to all the other **** that has gone on ITL couple years that nobody knows about. All is well and the perception of the "everyman" remains untarnished.
FYP
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:35 PM   #514
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Sorry Christopher, but none of this is cool. You need to take this for the wake up call that it is. Imho, your on the tail end of the boom fading fast. IDK the details of your biz relationships, but I cant imagine the " brand" has much more staying power. Be thankful this bs got swept basically and stop dealing with shady people.

I knew you were gonna stiff the dude... but you cant do that... you are Chris Moneymaker
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:42 PM   #515
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poogs View Post
This is so ridiculously wrong. An agent and a runner two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other. Why are people commenting here who don't have a clue on how these things work?
I think that is a huge exaggeration. I known a couple agents who act as middle men/runners/beards/mules/etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
As Jason stated we have reached an agreement. I talked to a lot of people the last few days including sheets and jason. I may be gullible or an easy target but I am giving jason the benifit of the doubt based solely on his reputation in the past. His past reputation by all accounts is impecable. He has stayed in contact with the 3 guys I know he owes and is working to pay them off over a year later. My money will be going to that purpose and not to jason himself. I still know my timeline and my reasons for not paying are accurate and acceptable however jason has been around the poker world a long time and I couldn't find one person he has wronged outside of this situation. Based on that I am paying the money
This is a really bad decision on your part. You shouldn't pay other people's debts.

Of course you are going to feel obligated when talking to sheets (who wants to get paid) and jason (who by all accounts is either a scammer or not very forward thinking).
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:33 PM   #516
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Glad for the both of you this got resolved, it was not helping either reputation. Does not seem like bad intent on either part.

I have always had a no borrow no lend policy ( since getting burned in 2003). But not with the OFC app I have a few outstanding debts and it SUCKS.

I will miss the drama of this thread, it was a fun read.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:02 PM   #517
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Simple solution to this whole mess. Jason send me the bets I made and the bets ak87 made as well as one other guy who I will pm you as he hasn't posted in the thread. All the bets were made on computer so should be a record. If I get the sheets and my timeline is wrong I will pay what I owe and apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I still know my timeline and my reasons for not paying are accurate and acceptable....
Yet you have nothing to back it up. AK87's bets were placed around October, not even close to April. So you're already wrong about one case, prob. same with the others.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #518
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Glad that an amicable solution could be reach.

I also find it interesting that making something public brought this year-long drama to a quick end.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:10 PM   #519
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

To add

At least you didn't get your hand caught in the hooker jar.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:23 PM   #520
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

At least this got worked out. Sucks that it had to be in public imo.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:39 PM   #521
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

This is a complete mess, and the "resolution" was terrible.

Here are my conclusions:

1. There was no bookie. Jason was booking the bets himself. This thread is now 35 pages long. Jason has dodged all questions about the bookie, including requests to privately name the bookie to a trusted third party. It is reasonably certain by Jason's lack of response here, along with the general suspicious nature of the entire situation, that there was no third-party bookie.


2. Jason did not have the money to cover the bet when Chris placed it. It is unclear of the reason for this. It had to be one of three things:

-- a) This was an outright scam/freeroll, born out of desperation to get out of a huge financial mess.

-- b) This was a "middling" or "make guaranteed juice" situation, where Jason got someone else to take the reverse Chris' action, perhaps at a worse line, and then the whole thing collapsed when Chris couldn't/wouldn't pay.

-- c) Jason did not set out to scam Chris, but was simply booking too much action that he couldn't cover, unrealsitically telling himself that somehow he would eventually pay everyone if he lost. This is what I call "The Lindgren Excuse", and while more noble than outright scamming/freerolling, is still pretty scummy.

If I had to guess, I would say that "c" above is what really happened.


3) Chris also did not have the money at the time the bet was made. I believe that Chris believed a staking deal was coming in the near future, and would be able to cover it somehow through that if he lost. When the staking deal fell through, Chris was probably unable to pay the $20k, and rather than snap-pay Jason as he would have if flush with money, probably decided to research the situation a bit more before paying. Once he found that Jason also did not have the money to back the bet, and in fact appeared to have lied about the bookie, Chris felt justified not to pay him at all. Obviously this also means Chris was not completely innocent in this situation, either. However, the difference is that Chris bet the money as himself (with Jason's full knowledge and ability to ascertain his financial health), while Jason bet the money as a fictitious person (which is fraudulent).


4) The biggest winners here are Jason's creditors -- sheets, et all. They were probably coming close to writing off this money as uncollectible. Now they will be likely be getting paid -- at least partially -- fairly soon, and via an unrelated third party! Talk about pennies from heaven!


5) The second-biggest winner here is Jason. He likely created a fake "reputable" bookie to take large sportsbets, booked the action himself with money he didn't have, and somehow is able to get one of his winning bets paid in full! He doesn't make out quite as well as his creditors, as he simply is having debt erased rather than any kind of cash infusion (the thing he really wanted), but that's still a great result when you were freerolling/lying and got caught.


6) The loser here is Chris. He pretty much lost in every way here. Now a large group of 2+2 readers know that he is a broke sportsbetting degen. Some now believe him to be a shady character, who tries to weasel out of bets. And worst yet, despite all of that, he's still out 20k! Wow! This couldn't have ended worse for him.


I still believe Chris was in the right, simply because he bet with a fictitious third party, and you cannot owe a fictitious entity money. Once that was discovered, the bet should have been immediately considered null and void. Furthermore, Jason himself clearly didn't have the money to cover it at the time, so he was being both lied to and freerolled. Even if Chris was somewhat freerolling himself, that isn't material here, because he lost the bet. Had the bet fallen the other way, it would be a much tougher call, since at least Jason's bet would have been with a real person (Chris).
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:51 PM   #522
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

omg omg omg its moneymaker, wow
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:05 PM   #523
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
Public poll added. We will see how you voted.
You should edit the op so it's clear you added the poll. Before I read the quoted post I thought it was incredibly lame of CM to include a poll with the op while only presenting his side of the story(your edit makes it clear you added JY side of events after the op was made).
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:07 PM   #524
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Poll been closed for hours, but I see your point and noted.
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:14 PM   #525
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

can someone give me the cliffs of this thread? jason has owed my friend a few thousand bucks for over a year. i will alert him to this thread.

Last edited by aejones; 10-29-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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