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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2013, 12:15 PM   #401
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
If I would of won of course I would want to be paid. However, after years of experience I would of realized that I not getting anything and gave up. This is what makes me an easy target I guess. I write off the debt after I realize I am not collecting.
Whatever happened to the guy who was owed 18k? Isn't that the entire basis of your argument? If you have your dates mixed up then there's really no reason for not having paid back in April.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:26 PM   #402
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Also what was your bosses name? Surely you have no issue saying it since he suppossedly screwed you
Does anyone think that possibly the "boss" is named Jason Young?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:29 PM   #403
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I really doubt Jason is trying to scam anyone here, as he has told me that whatever he does collect from Chris will be going to other people he owes.

It is not as if he plans on keeping the money if Chris pays him.

Maybe that doesnt matter? I spoke to Jason yesterday and asked him alot of tough questions, and while I never have actually met him in person, I am convinced that his heart is in the right place.

I also had an equally long talk with Chris some time ago, and I was actually convinced that his heart was in the right place also. He felt that he had taken the high road too many times, and felt that his days of being taken advantage of due to his name were over, and that he shouldn't pay, if he felt he would not have gotten paid if he won.

Please keep in mind that I am completely not neutral here, as I would far prefer to have Chris pay, but with that caveat.....

I guess the one question I would have for Chris, though, is....if he had won, would he be attempting to collect his winnings? If so, then I can't quite get a handle on the idea that he should not pay if he lost. If that is the case, then who exactly is being freerolled here? (That is, if Chris would have wanted to get paid if he won but is using Jasons "insolnevcy" or whatever you call it, as a reason to not pay now.)

As usual my logic probably has alot of holes in it. I am probably biased and not thinking straight, as is typical of most biased people.

idk

F Sports.
I get what you are saying, but the question is not would Chris have attempted to collect. The question is would he have been able to collect. If the answer is no, it doesn't matter whether Chris would have wanted to get paid or not. At least that's the way I see it.

In the same way, if Moneymaker had won money on bets and Jason could prove that Moneymaker was insolvent when he made the bets and thus would not have paid if he lost, I don't think Jason would have to pay Chris the money. The fact that Jason was planning on attempting to collect from Chris wouldn't mean that he should pay Chris...because even though he would attempt to collect, he wouldn't have been able to.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #404
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Yea thats a good point. What if Chris had won and Jason found out he was broke and couldn't have paid had he lost?
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #405
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by mavsfan4ever View Post
In the same way, if Moneymaker had won money on bets and Jason could prove that Moneymaker was insolvent when he made the bets and thus would not have paid if he lost, I don't think Jason would have to pay Chris the money.
Are you sure about this? Do you think that if bookies who owed bettors thought that the bettors were broke that they would/should not pay?
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:22 PM   #406
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I would never bet with someone online, however, if I placed a bet with someone and then lose I'll pay. That said, if the person I"m betting with is proven to be broke (as it has been proven here) I'd never pay and probably make an example out of them somehow. Knee cap punishment maybe. At very least, I'd come to a forum the person partakes in (or his friends and potential victims) and make it clear to the community to prevent this from happening again.

MM has played this cruddy situation as well as he could. He should know better than to place bets outside of sportsbooks.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #407
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger View Post

Jason has shown himself to be insolvent, so it's very likely he was freerolling Chris. If he can't pay sheets when Chris lost, how could he have paid Chris if Chris won?
this should be re-posted over and over until people understand it
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:19 PM   #408
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Looks like JY was clearly running this operation on his own. I'm not buying the whole "My boss disappeared" act. If JY's boss did disappear, give the guys who are owed money to his name and let them try to deal with him personally and stop asking MM for the $15K. As an agent, the $15k is no longer JY's responsibility to collect and the owed money is no longer JY's responsibility to pay out. My gut tells me the players who are waiting for money are owed a lot more then $15k combined.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:50 PM   #409
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
Looks like JY was clearly running this operation on his own. I'm not buying the whole "My boss disappeared" act. If JY's boss did disappear, give the guys who are owed money to his name and let them try to deal with him personally and stop asking MM for the $15K. As an agent, the $15k is no longer JY's responsibility to collect and the owed money is no longer JY's responsibility to pay out. My gut tells me the players who are waiting for money are owed a lot more then $15k combined.
CM took the credit $15K from JY and LOST it. But instead of paying JY he's running around playing Detective Columbo. Sheets and the other guys is a separate issue, THEY WON. Let them deal with JY their way.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:10 PM   #410
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by imadonk View Post
CM took the credit $15K from JY and LOST it. But instead of paying JY he's running around playing Detective Columbo. Sheets and the other guys is a separate issue, THEY WON. Let them deal with JY their way.
Because if it turns out after the fact JY had no ability to pay Chris - Chris should have no responsibility to pay JY. It's really simple that you should never allow yourself to be freerolled.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:31 PM   #411
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Whatever the case is Chris and Jason should be embarrassed of themselves. I haven't seen them apologize once. Chris is outing Jason for illegal activities and Moneymaker looks like a broke stiff. This could be grounds to drop him from poker stars.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:47 PM   #412
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

My sons did this weird thing today. They played a game where they throw pokemon cards to a wall and then look who threw the closest to the wall. The one who won the game won the pokemon card the loser threw with. The oldest one - 9 years - lost and broke like all kids in tears. He accused his younger brother of cheating and refused to give him his card.

On topic: this is pathetic. You are acting extremely immature. When you lose you lose, you pay what you played for. At least, that's what I taught my children.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:02 PM   #413
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by GMLAW View Post
My sons did this weird thing today. They played a game where they throw pokemon cards to a wall and then look who threw the closest to the wall. The one who won the game won the pokemon card the loser threw with. The oldest one - 9 years - lost and broke like all kids in tears. He accused his younger brother of cheating and refused to give him his card.

On topic: this is pathetic. You are acting extremely immature. When you lose you lose, you pay what you played for. At least, that's what I taught my children.
But what if your older son who lost, while crying in tears, said "But Dad, so and so (younger brother) wouldn't have given me his card if I won?" and then the younger brother sheepishly confessed and admitted he would not have given up his card had he lost... DUCY

There is right and wrong in any decision made here. However, because it is standard practice to write off any debt in a situation where you were being free-rolled, then that seems like the best course of action, though not necessarily the right one. This is gambling, not absolute law.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:03 PM   #414
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by JPB383 View Post
Because if it turns out after the fact JY had no ability to pay Chris - Chris should have no responsibility to pay JY. It's really simple that you should never allow yourself to be freerolled.
The issues you, Kilowatt, and other CM supporters are missing (and ignoring) is:

1- Did CM have the ability to pay JY if he lost? Apparently not, as he was wagering on "credit". If you want to make an issue of JY's solvency, then the same standard should apply to CM. Its beginning to look like he was wagering with money he doesn't have/had. Just another in a long list of poker degens.

2-Does CM have a history of stiffing or free rolling bookies? Apparently Yes he does. He has admitted to stiffing 2 bookies in the past and only payed up after he binked the WSOP.

So you are speculating on issues concerning JY, but we actually have facts and some history concerning CM's behavior. Lets hold him to the same standard as JY.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:06 PM   #415
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

What if is it was found that your youngest son's card was a worthless forgery and he was actually completely broke in terms of Pokemon cards?


PS: I used to love closest to the wall and topsies. Serious kid gaming.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:15 PM   #416
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Than he should not have played in the first place. Now that he did, he should accept the consequences and give the card he made his brother believe he played for. If he does not have it, he should mow our lawn, the neighbours, their neighbours etcetera, until he can afford to pay the card and give to his brother.

PS: I own them both. Love those games.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:22 PM   #417
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by WillCK View Post
If you have some reason to believe the bookie isn't going to pay out....why are you booking bets with him in the first place?

This whole after the fact "I heard he owes other people and isn't paying"....is irrelevant to me....just because you aren't fronting the money doesn't mean you didn't place a bet.

You placed a bet and that bet was booked. The assumption is that based on the outcome of the game/games the money will be settled up. There is no provision in that contract for "I heard you didn't pay out a couple of people...so I am withholding my losses"

If he had won and hadn't gotten paid....and the bookie refused to pay or ignored him and made no effort...then you have a grievance...and a thread.

This is a transaction between two people....not a group of people.
When he placed the bet he didn't have any reason to think he wouldn't be pay. It was only after the fact that he found out people weren't being paid (according to MM). If he placed bets after finding out this info then your point is valid. So only after you get screwed can you do something? What if all evidence indicated you were going to be screwed after the fact? It's that mentality that allows scams to take place. What about being proactive once you find out? Assuming if what MM says is true.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:22 PM   #418
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMLAW View Post
My sons did this weird thing today. They played a game where they throw pokemon cards to a wall and then look who threw the closest to the wall. The one who won the game won the pokemon card the loser threw with. The oldest one - 9 years - lost and broke like all kids in tears. He accused his younger brother of cheating and refused to give him his card.

On topic: this is pathetic. You are acting extremely immature. When you lose you lose, you pay what you played for. At least, that's what I taught my children.
Horrible analogy, you've completely failed to understand a very simple situation; please don't make any more children, we don't want your genes polluting the rest of the species more than they already have.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:25 PM   #419
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:37 PM   #420
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

If chris can prove 100% that jason wouldnt have been able to pay chris if had won, then he shouldnt have to pay. Pretty simple imo.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:45 PM   #421
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
Are you sure about this? Do you think that if bookies who owed bettors thought that the bettors were broke that they would/should not pay?
Not if the bookies just thought that the bettors were broke....if the bettors were objectively broke/insolvent and had no intention to pay if they won. Yes, I don't think the bookie should have to pay if this is the case. This is the definition of a free roll. Just like I don't think Moneymaker should have to pay if Jason was objectively insolvent/broke and had no intention/ability to pay if Moneymaker won.

Of course, it is virtually impossible to prove that a bettor was insolvent or never intended to pay had he lost. This is why the issue never comes up. If a bookie tried to claim this and not pay out, the bettor can always claim that he had means to pay (job, paycheck, loan, friend would pay for him, etc). So it won't do a bookie any good to take the position that he doesn't have to pay because the bettor would not have been able to pay had he lost. The bookie would literally need a video recording of the bettor talking about his plan to not pay the bookie if he loses.

But it's a lot easier to prove that a bookie is insolvent/broke and not intending to pay if he loses. I agree with my original post in that the reasoning goes both ways, no matter who is owed the money. But practically speaking, the bookie won't be able to use the argument because he has no way to prove that the bettor would not have paid him. The bettor can use the argument because he may (depending on the evidence) be able to prove that the bookie would not have paid him.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:51 PM   #422
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The key point is if chris won how would he have gotten paid. Sheets won over a year ago and still hasn't been paid. Surprised no one has latched onto this.

I think jason had all intentions to pay but got caught in a nowin situation after many who won wanted to be paid and losers stiffed.

What was the controversy at borgata jason was involved in.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:58 PM   #423
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Thanks Land of the Free? for your in depth contribution to the topic and your related insult to my children. Enjoy further wasting your DNA material in the sexy girls of poker topic.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:07 PM   #424
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
The key point is if chris won how would he have gotten paid. Sheets won over a year ago and still hasn't been paid. Surprised no one has latched onto this.

I think jason had all intentions to pay but got caught in a nowin situation after many who won wanted to be paid and losers stiffed.

What was the controversy at borgata jason was involved in.
To be fair, I did get paid a portion. Not as much as I would have liked, nor as regularly etc, but I did get something so far.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:34 PM   #425
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Stuff like this is inevitable. That is the cost of dealing with credit on both sides.

Both, IMHO, appear to be 'wrong'. So I have no clue as the 'right' answer.

Don't bet on sports! There is no winning.
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