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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:31 AM   #276
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

The other players that are owed money should post in this thread.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:41 AM   #277
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

If they can't lock down the timeline, then imo we have to assume Jason Young was insolvent and freerolling at the time of Moneymaker's bets. You can't be insolvent six months later and be like, "yeah but six months earlier I could've paid even though I can't prove it."
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:44 AM   #278
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

The "there was no bookie" angle is weird to me. Surely there were other players that Jason acted as an agent for. I assume some of them would've done some research into the bookmaker? In some cases there would be a website that they as customers would bet through? Seems like a hard thing for JY to fake unless everything was done over the phone. And if you created a bookie out of thin air, why would you air this dirty laundry now.

One of the best things JY has going for him (since a lot of this is hard to piece together as an outsider to the agent business) is that he was the one who made the dispute public.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:15 AM   #279
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
We find this out AFTER we've placed our bets.

According to CM here's what happened.

He wins 5k early April
Rolls wins over to next week due to being on a trip
Loses 20k and now owes 15k
He informs JY he's on a trip and will pay up once he returns home

According to CM this is when he receives a message from someone who is owed 18k by Jason for several weeks.

If this is accurate, wouldn't it stand to reason that Jason was freerolling CM?

Later it turns out JY owes 40k+
I just disagree...and apparently I am in the minority....so I am going to bow out.

I think if you place a bet with a bookie..shady or otherwise...and lose...you pay the guy who booked your bet....the same guy who you are going to be looking up if you win....reguardless if he is an "agent"....or the actual book purporting to be working with a ghost book...you pay and collect from your contact...and what happens after that is not your concern.

I don't follow this whole reverse freeroll scenario.

This whole thing is completely avoidable...just walk into any legal book in the world and put your money up...ask yourself why this didn't happen.

CM was traveling....if it's something related to poker ...then there is probably a legal book nearby.....so were the lines better through JY?....did CM perhaps not have the money up front to cover his own bets?

Lest we forget, by his own admission previous to his fame...he was a degen sports bettor who stiffed a few bookies....now we are supporting him in doing it again.

Anyway....y'all hash it out. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #280
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I have made upwards of 100 different sports/prop bets in my time with many different people. This is a relatively small, tiny number in the sports world. I understand all the terms people are saying here, and familiar with some of the situations.

That being said, I'm sure my experience doesn't come close to what I believe scary tigers, bansooners, or liveactionpro's experience is. So I am refraining from posting my strong opinion on what I think should be done. I'd advise others who don't know this world WELL, to do the same.

Also, so far kilowatt had the best post to simplify this situation to me.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:36 AM   #281
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillCK View Post
I just disagree...and apparently I am in the minority....so I am going to bow out.

I think if you place a bet with a bookie..shady or otherwise...and lose...you pay the guy who booked your bet....the same guy who you are going to be looking up if you win....reguardless if he is an "agent"....or the actual book purporting to be working with a ghost book...you pay and collect from your contact...and what happens after that is not your concern.

I don't follow this whole reverse freeroll scenario.

This whole thing is completely avoidable...just walk into any legal book in the world and put your money up...ask yourself why this didn't happen.

CM was traveling....if it's something related to poker ...then there is probably a legal book nearby.....so were the lines better through JY?....did CM perhaps not have the money up front to cover his own bets?

Lest we forget, by his own admission previous to his fame...he was a degen sports bettor who stiffed a few bookies....now we are supporting him in doing it again.

Anyway....y'all hash it out. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion.
How do you not understand the freeroll scenario? It's not hard to get dude!

Kilowatt is spot on by the way. It really does seem strange Jason is not outing the booker who allegedly scammed him. That simple proof would make Chris liable to pay, right? Isn't this what most of you think? Including Kilowatt who seems to be correct most of the time.

Because he hasn't, after multiple request, outed the booker makes it super likely he was acting as a bookie himself. If he is taking (like he was) bets from a bunch of people it's very unlikely he had the money to pay everyone if all of them happened to win, thus making it a freeroll situation and voiding bets between Chris and Jason. I can see how this kind of business is lucrative as in the long run bookers do tend to win if they can give correct lines, but in cases like this where Jason doesn't have enough money to cover losses it's a simple case of freerolling and losing players should not be expected to pay.

If this is the case Jason was kind of reverse-freerolling himself in here though, as people who won money from him are eligible to collect. Meaning bets between Jason and sheets should not be voided (obviously).

Such a hassle to bet through agents, quite honestly I dont undertand why people do it. Degens gonna degen I guess.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:44 AM   #282
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I've been an agent and a "boss" and in my experience, guys with half a brain dont become agents, and if they do they end up going out on their own rather quickly. So if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that there was never a boss and Jason just made him up to a) scare people into paying b) cover his ass in a situation like this.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:45 AM   #283
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BanSooners View Post
I can't answer that as I don't have the timeline nor details of payment times or their agreement. JY could've been an agent for a huge book who got crushed and took off. That book could have 5 agents and more and JY just be one of them. JY only sees the action that he is an agent for.

If JY has 5 bettors he is an agent for and it's something like this

player A +1000
player B + 3000
player C +500
player D -10k

In JY's world he is fine . Hes collecting 10k and paying out 4500 and taking a cut of the $5500 profit after paying the book. Let's for argument sake say book lost more than he could pay to a huge whale and splits. JY is F****D and gonna look bad if he doesn't collect the 10k because he now owes 3 different ppl. Player D finds out that JY can't pay thru no fault of his own so he correctly assumes that he wasn't getting paid (thus freerolled) but it wasn't JY's fault nor anyones but the bookie. I wldn't be surprised if it went down something like this tbh
You need funds to cover winnings in order to vouch or be an agent. To book $14.5k worth of action, you need at least $14.5k on hand to pay them if they win. You can't have $4.5k on hand and have someone owe you $10k. And you certainly can't have $4.5k on hand and owe someone $18k. There is no fractional reserve system in booking sports bets, you'd be freerolling the bettors by doing so.

The promise is that you'll pay if they win. Not pay if they win and you can collect some money from someone somehow.

Last edited by Scary_Tiger; 10-25-2013 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:52 AM   #284
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveActionPro View Post
If Chris doesn't owe Jason, then 100% owes money to other guys if some how can prove they are owed money and just not using it as a scapegoat.
Not clear to me why this is 100%.

Why should any of the freeroll scam victims be made (partially) whole by other victims? It is only by chance that there were other bettors at all, and those who were stuck. Each victim was losing half their bets in, uh, Sklansky (Lindgren?) Bucks each bet. Winning $0 is running good. Mostly I don't feel anyone should have to pay if they couldn't expect to get paid.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:11 AM   #285
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by undercutter View Post
Not clear to me why this is 100%.

Why should any of the freeroll scam victims be made (partially) whole by other victims? It is only by chance that there were other bettors at all, and those who were stuck. Each victim was losing half their bets in, uh, Sklansky (Lindgren?) Bucks each bet. Winning $0 is running good. Mostly I don't feel anyone should have to pay if they couldn't expect to get paid.
His statement isn't unprecedented. In the Madoff case, people that got out early and got paid, had their money confiscated to make partially whole people that were scammed later. The analogy here would be Josh Kay would have his "winnings" taken away to help repay sheets and would only be returned a portion of his "investment". For Chris that means whatever if any money he ever gave to Jason, he'd get only a partial repayment with the rest going to the fund that pays sheets and others. If Chris never gave any money to Jason, which it sounds like, he wouldn't owe anything as none of the "bets" were legitimate.

Now, I don't think that's fair in that I view everyone that bet with Madoff or Jason shared equal personal responsibility with regard to where they were putting their money, and in Jason's case, his book may have been solvent for earlier bets but fallen apart later. Madoff was I believe a scam from the outset.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:26 AM   #286
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushibones View Post
Barry Greenstein owes Fulltilt 500k. After Black Friday, Barry finds out that Fulltilt doesn't have funds and realizes that Fulltilt cannot pay its players. Barry owes nothing. Simple as that.
Lol, this is a completely different situation.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #287
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Let's say a random tries to make a deposit on Lock Poker, his account is credited, and he loses it all. However, the actual funds never left his bank, and Lock is now requesting he pays. During this time, the random discovers 2+2, and reads the Lock poker thread which makes him aware he probably would not have gotten paid should he have won.

Does he still have an obligation to pay Lock?
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #288
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveActionPro View Post
You guys are idiots, Jason is not going to OUT his bookie on here.
Yes, people are asking him to out his bookie, which could solve some of this mess if he did. I actually agree that outing in this spot is likely bad for Jason, however he has def dogged that question, and then accused CM of dogging some of his questions. They both look a bit redic imo.

Simple answer from Jason would be, guys I'm not outing my bookie publicly but I'll PM his name over to CM and Sheets/ some other reputable person/whom ever and they can come confirm after they do some work on the name.

He hasn't gotten anywhere near acknowledging the guy even existed....

Tho this def should go to arbitration either way. Tho with what has been posted itt I still think CM was getting freerolled more often than he is stiffing, but it's gotten closer to 50/50, obv imo.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:06 AM   #289
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxtraw View Post
Let's say a random tries to make a deposit on Lock Poker, his account is credited, and he loses it all. However, the actual funds never left his bank, and Lock is now requesting he pays. During this time, the random discovers 2+2, and reads the Lock poker thread which makes him aware he probably would not have gotten paid should he have won.

Does he still have an obligation to pay Lock?
If there is some chance that he could have gotten paid then yes he should pay lock. If there is no chance he could have won then no he should not settle up as he was clearly getting freerolled. Though an agreement with a business is different than among friends so it's not as cut and dry as my response obv.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:08 AM   #290
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Anyone realize that they have both agreed to private arbitration in this thread? I think the next step would be to find an arbitrator both agree on. Empiremaker2 is like the authority on HS sports betting. Maybe he'd be game?
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:15 AM   #291
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Seems like, for Chris to come out looking like he did the right thing, he should offer to pay his money to the players who are owed. For Jason to come out looking like he did the right thing, he should offer Chris to pay the money to players who are owed.

Last edited by jaxtraw; 10-25-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:22 AM   #292
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I have stated my case and facts and will handle situation with Jason through arbitrator privately. Empiremaker, hevadkhan, Jason mercier. Someone who knows sports works for me. I will contact Jason and let you guys debate who was right. I never wanted this to go public obv but I feel strongly enough in my position that I am not paying off the debt to avoid being blackmailed by it being posted on here. I know this thread would be bad for my image however I don't think it is right to pay to keep it quiet.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:25 AM   #293
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger View Post
You need funds to cover winnings in order to vouch or be an agent. To book $14.5k worth of action, you need at least $14.5k on hand to pay them if they win. You can't have $4.5k on hand and have someone owe you $10k. And you certainly can't have $4.5k on hand and owe someone $18k. There is no fractional reserve system in booking sports bets, you'd be freerolling the bettors by doing so.

The promise is that you'll pay if they win. Not pay if they win and you can collect some money from someone somehow.

Not true at all in all books. 90% of the one I've witnessed are 20% to the agent for finding and 'handling' the player with no risk.. In very few cases have I seen the agent have to cover it all, otherwise he'd just be the book and take all the risk
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:27 AM   #294
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxtraw View Post
Let's say a random tries to make a deposit on Lock Poker, his account is credited, and he loses it all. However, the actual funds never left his bank, and Lock is now requesting he pays. During this time, the random discovers 2+2, and reads the Lock poker thread which makes him aware he probably would not have gotten paid should he have won.

Does he still have an obligation to pay Lock?
I hate it when people use analogies that don't pertain to the given situation. When you deposit on a gambling site as a US citizen, then you are taking a risk. There is always a chance you won't get paid if you withdraw.

Now, when you make a sports bet with someone there is also a chance you won't get paid. But, since this person is not an offshore poker site it is resolvable. Furthermore, Chris is electing to not pay his debt because he gained knowledge that JY was not paying losses on wagers with other bettors. Leading Chris to believe he was getting freerolled. Now, it's not a fact that Chris was getting freerolled and JY should provide proof that he wasn't in order for Chris to pay up.

If I was Chris in this situation, I would pay what I owe to the people that JY owes money to. I would require proof that he does indeed owe these people money. To avoid JY getting someone to claim he owes them money and then get the money from Chris.

Now, if there is proof that JY was 100% going to freeroll Chris then I would consider the bets to be void. But, since there is a chance JY was intending to make good on all of his debts. Chris should still have to pay up. It does appear that Chris is looking for a reason to not have to pay his debt. All the people that won money off JY have been freerolled and Chris really should pay these people because he did lose his bets.

Just my 2cents.

Apples and oranges.

Last edited by AgroNit22; 10-25-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:39 AM   #295
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I think you guys need to ask yourselves one question and one question only.

What would be your response if everything remaining equal, Chris Moneymaker had never mad the bet, and it was Sheets making a thread about how Jason Young isn't paying.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:48 AM   #296
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I don't see how his personal business with other people has anything to do with your debt. You obv don't have to continue to do business, but you do have to pay. That's pretty simple.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:49 AM   #297
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I'm one of the people owed. I'm not entirely certain on timelines but will talk to arbitrators if needed. Just posting in the event of this going in JY's favor.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:50 AM   #298
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

First of all I'd like to state for the record that I've never placed an illegal wager with an agent or bookie so Ban Sooner should just skip this post.

Secondly, I've read every post up to here & have read many state they have also but nobody has commented on this statement that CM posted 10 or so pages back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap
To clarify timeline of events. I discovered that Jason owed 18k back around April when I lost. I was in an airport in Europe heading home with every intention to pay Jason. When I found this out yes I waited/stalled whatever you want to call it. Another guy came to me saying Jason owed him 24k a few weeks later. This is long before I knew about sheets. Sheets called me several months later and told me his experience. His "boss" supposedly split back in April but according to sheets he didn't start betting again with Jason till October of that year. I know Jason was completely insolvent then and his "boss" was gone yet he opened up his book for sheets to start betting again.

Jason and I spoke on phone about 3 months ago and he told me I was wrong and continued to tell me he was going to post the situation. He said I borrowed 2k from him and didn't pay that back which I 100 percent know I did during the lccf crap. He was certain I didn't so I agreed to pay him 2k since he thinks I borrowed money and didn't pay him back. I also told him again I am not paying when you were freeroling me. He asked me to pay the first person who brought up his 18k debt and I sent him the money on pokerstars. After I sent it to him he want to set up a payment plan with me to settle the rest of what Jason owes. I told him I am not paying that debt.

For those of you saying I made bets and lost so I must pay are dead wrong end of story. If the book you are betting with is insolvent and you not getting paid then you can't be expected to paid. Clearly a freeroll. And there is zero percent chance I would reverse freeroll Jason or whatever as I do value my reputation.

The decision not to pay did bot come lightly as I knew it would look bad for me, however, I was convinced enough that he was insolvent and freerolling me I know I am right in the situation
This is a crappy situation for both me and Jason and no one is a winner here and it does look bad for both of us.

That being said I know I made right decision after reading about gostatego who I never knew about and his struggles to pay those debts but reopen the book for sheets. By the way since sheets did come in here and speak I will mention that he was the person who contacted me and said that Jason paid him 500 I believe on his 8k debt.
He says he paid a guy 18K on Pokerstars at JY's request which is more than CM acknowledges he owed in the first place. If this is/can be confirmed, why is JY blowing him up for the whole 25K(his figure)? This should be easy to confim that CM did this or not. JY has responded numerous times since this post by CM & hasn't said one word about that.

WTF? Am I missing something here?

After re-reading I see he sent that guy 2K not 18K.

Last edited by Not Hockey Guy; 10-25-2013 at 11:01 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:57 AM   #299
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

All JY seems to want to do is drag CM's name through the mud by insinuating CM was planning on paying him by scamming some backers in a deal that fell through. He's said this several times instead of answering some pretty simple questions about his bookie.

I would never expect him to reveal it on a public forum but there are many people I'm sure he trusts that can confirm he's revealed it in private & this bookie existed.

I guess we'll wait for the arbitrators verdict who will have all the facts because we certainly don't in this thread.

Good luck.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:58 AM   #300
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger View Post
You need funds to cover winnings in order to vouch or be an agent. To book $14.5k worth of action, you need at least $14.5k on hand to pay them if they win. You can't have $4.5k on hand and have someone owe you $10k. And you certainly can't have $4.5k on hand and owe someone $18k. There is no fractional reserve system in booking sports bets, you'd be freerolling the bettors by doing so.

The promise is that you'll pay if they win. Not pay if they win and you can collect some money from someone somehow.
This isn't true. Again, people giving opinions when they don't know what here talking about. If Jason was an agent, as he says he was, then he doesn't need any kind of bankroll at all. Agents are just middlemen
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