As he's been for years.....Rzitup is an excellent arbitrator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwEIjbfOHD0 (Pay that man his money)

i'd say the best option is to pay jason then end your business with him. Stiffing him because of hearsay isn't fair and prob won't help the problem.

The correct answer is to wait and see, don't pay someone who mat be robbing others, but don't rule out paying him either if he makes it right with everyone proving that he wasn't intending to freeroll

Obviously if he stiffs a bunch of other people for no reason you shouldn't pay him as he had no intention to pay you. Also, do your research better before betting with a random guy for amounts of money that matter.

It's not like Jason Young is some random. He was very active in the HSNL betting thread and also reliable.

No disrespect to the parties involved, but, wasn't this something we all learned in grade school?!!!!

put the money in escrow (at the very least a % of total amt owed) with a reputable arbitrator on 2p2 to provide you are indeed acting in good faith. you have a right to determine if you're being freerolled given the interactions/conversations with other betters, however it is still your obligation to pay your debt regardless of what financial troubles your agent is in.

Looking forward to his post then.

Tl;dr is that we don't have enough info right now to judge who is at fault or who owes who what etc

The problem is, whether he stiffs others or not is none of CM's business. Yea, it might seem like the "nice" or "right" thing to do, but it's not.
What if JY's situation looks like this:

+$100k - owed by Associate A
-60k - owe to Associates B&C
+20k - owed by CM
Net total: +$60k

What CM is doing is talking a single (or more) parts of JY's personal issues, and trying to use them to justify his paying/not paying CM. Why isnt he asking JY if he is OWED money from other friends/associates?

What if JY owed no gambling debts to anyone, but was $20k behind on child support? Should CM not pay, under the justification that he is a dead beat dad?

Again, the bottom line is that CM made bets with JY, and owes JY that money. You can spin it all you want, research it, talk to his friends, employer, ex's etc. That's not going to justify not paying him.

Pay the man you made the bet with

The rest is not your problem

If you really wanna make a point arrange for him to collect the money once he has spoken to the others

So the boss has skipped town and isn't paying anything out, but is still collecting through Jason? But Jason isn't able to get a hold of him? It really just sounds like a scam. If no one else has ever been paid anything then what should Chris assume would have happened to him if he had been winning? It seems convenient for Jason to only target the guy in Debt and blame 'the boss' for not paying the winners.
On the other side, Jason cant be stupid. I dont think he would make this an issue if he was trying to scam after already allegedly owing other people a lot of money. We need more information here.

It sort of is though, if he's freerolling everyone who bets with him it's a fair assumption that he's attempting to freeroll CM as well

We don't currently have the info to determine whether that's the case one way or the other though

I tend to side with Chris here.

You can't just clear cut say "you owe money, pay it" in a spot like this. There is a good chance the bookie was short money and that if Chris had won, Chris wouldn't have gotten paid. It's not certain that's the case, and it's not certain that Chris isn't mainly motivated by seeing a chance to not pay a debt. However, Chris has a very good reputation from what I as an average joe know about him, and he has a lot of "facts" on his side (the hearsay that the bookie owes a bunch of people), so I think what he's is doing is okay.

That being said, Chris' main purpose here should simply be to get his side of the story out. Treating the opinions of random NVG'ers as valuable would be asinine.

This is the bull**** reasoning that allows scammers to thrive in the poker world

I'm not saying we CM doesn't owe the money, but if JY was simply freerolling everyone who bet with him, CM doesn't owe the money. If JY can prove that he paid out all of the legitimate bettors who won money then of course CM owes the money but if he's running a scam organisation I don't think CM is obliged to pay him.

That said if it's only one or two people he hasn't paid and it's for valid reasons, then yes, CM does owe JY the money.

If JY wants to collect, he should post his side of the story here, with supporting evidence and both parties should agree to abide by the ruling of an agreed upon neutral arbitrator

Sad to see another poker star sink.

Pay the man YOU owe.

I think you are making excuses, but here is an easy solution. Arrange a time and place to pay JY the money you owe him. Let the "friends" he owes in on the time and place. After you pay JY and leave, your "friends" can meet him outside to discuss their payments.

5k - 5k - 15k = -25k

I am in the camp to pay him, and let **** himself with the debts he owes.

You're the sucker that stiffs/scammers/con artists prey upon. It's an illegal underground economy which don't involve morals or ethics and you have a responsibility to only yourself not to screw yourself over.

Your 2003 WSOP MAIN EVENT CHAMPION CHRIS MONEYMAKER DOES NOT PAY HIS DEBTS

I had something I was going to post over the summer; that I held onto because I still had hopes Chris would do the right thing…

I tried to avoid this for a long time, way too much time has gone by and its just not right..I havent even logged into 2+2 since the outage whenever that was, and I’ve had quite a hectic last year having nothing to do with poker at all.
I'm going to make a real real long story very short.
Bottom line- I was a high stakes reg for 5+ years on the live circuit.
I was also a high stakes reg in the HSNL forum and HS sports discussion thread etc.
Over the course of I guess 18 months I was scammed out of over 50k by the likes of CLHOUSE8,whatup,ezdonk, a slew of others I dont even really remember, and the icing on the cake was LIMPCALLCALLFOLD. I was scammed out of roughly 20k by him, but freerolled for far worse---somewhere in the 100's of thousands on the ncaa tournament last year alone.
Ive paid out 100's of thousands if not more in pieces, bought and sold, pools, swaps, online $, and sports win's and losses. I have an immaculate record, and I'm sure I could have an endless line of people come in here and vouch, confirm--whatever. Which I will have starting shortly…
After the sports thread went down a bunch of high stakes guys kept swapping action online, on skype through text on different sites etc.
Moneymaker aka Dunlap lost over 20k NOT directly to me and bought online monies from me equaling a total of just under 25k owed to me.
This was pre wsop 2012- I covered his losses for him and at the time didn’t need the $ right away. I also assumed he was good for it.
A couple months went by and he had paid nothing stating whatever excuses that he couldn’t pay, and said we could most likely square up at the wsop. I opened a business last year that i put basically all of my liquidity into. I only went to Vegas for the Main Event. I spoke to Chris and he still put it off.
Fast Forward to a situation where a few people that I had dealt with in the past won $ NOT from me but from someone I vouched for. I got screwed once again- and am pretty much completely over dealing with all of this ****. I’m done with that whole world, im focused on my business and my family. I told Chris I needed my money this was in the ballpark of 1 full year after he owed me this $. Told him that it wasn’t even for me, it was for other people that were owed this money. He confirmed to these people that he owed me this money, yet still to this day has refused to pay it.
All in all I’ve been scammed for close to 6 figures, I've always gone into my pocket to make things right, ALWAYS. Quite frankly I’m tired of it, and I’m tired of people getting away with this.
Like I previously stated all of my liquidity is in my business so at this point in time, even if i wanted to just pay out of my pocket like I always have in the past I can't.

I’ve made arrangements with the people that are owed, been in constant contact with them the entire time, inviting them to come speak to me personally in NY. I value my name in this world, and have always done the right thing. Some people have been paid off in full, some have arranged payment plans etc, which none of which would be necessary if Chris paid his debt, then all of this would be behind us.

I don’t rat people out, I don’t throw people under the bus, If I vouch for something and it doesn’t work out, I will do everything in my power to make it right.

After re-reading some of my own post- I can pretty much guarantee over 7 figures in the past 5 years of transfers,pieces bought and sold, pools,online $. He lost this money at least 6 months prior to these guys winning so his story is full of holes, and more lies. I told him many times I was more than willing to work out a payment plan with him.

Lastly anyone that was in contact with him can confirm they never once believed they were getting scammed and had all been paid in the past.

He was never for one second being freerolled- I can march 100s of people in here to attest for that…your move Chris. Just do the right thing and put all of this in the past.

This is my last post on the thread as I have said my piece. Not really looking for opionions. I am not saying Jason is a scammer. I know he started a restaurant in ny and believe he did have a boss that walked out on him or he was doing this as a side fig and got killed by some people. One guy told me a year and half ago that Jason paid him 500 of the 8k he is owed. Its been over two years now and if I had won I would not have gotten paid. I was being freerolled. In 10 years this is the only debt I never paid and I firmly believe I am in the right here and therefore am not paying

edit:

After last post, IF CM really was getting freerolled, he definitely shouldn't pay imo. Obviously two sides to story...

If you had an uncollected but credited deposit from FTP outstanding (they were doing this near the end, crediting players' accounts without actually taking the money as they had payment processor problems) would you pay them?

Not a chance.

I side with Moneymaker here. If the guy's scamming other people, I ain't giving him ****.

Chris, if these other people have proof that Jason owes them money, pay them a portion of what you owe Jason based on how much Jason owes them IMO.

When two people engage in an agreement or verbal contract there is often a level of trust with each other and in many internet business transactions the level of trust necessary is commonly lost.

I am not sure who is guilty but it sucks to see two people age 30+ involved in these kind of disputes. It must not only be embarrassing but one of you two is just a low life piece of trash (not sure which one it is yet) whilst the other one has made a slightly bad judgement call in doing business with the other.


...but we can let 2p2 decide!

So CM is screwing himself over by not paying a debt, because he "thinks" that if he had won, he might not have gotten paid?

That's a pretty easy reverse freeroll. "I bet you $10k, because if I lose, I am not going to pay, because if I win, I don't think you are going to pay"!

Is Moneymaker still a PS pro? If so inb4 terminate your contract

fyp

What if (and I'm not saying that's the situation here) you had proof beyond reasonable doubt that the guy you owe was planning not to pay you if you'd lost?