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Old 05-01-2009, 02:28 PM   #376
waxhax0rs
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBJaxx View Post
First of all, I appreciate you posting your opinion. Of course, though, I very much disagree.

While you are quantifying these situations pretty well (referring to the utility of going to a football game, etc), you are oversimplifying the situation. A $100 ticket to a football game doesn't equal $100 worth of fun either. There is plenty of uncertainty regarding how much fun you will have at a football game. Obviously, you don't have the same amount of fun at any 2 similar events you go to whether it be a sporting event, a movie, a comedian, or dinner. There are countless variables involved in determining how much fun you will have in any given situation. Guaranteeing some level of utility for an entertainment product is impossible. That is how capitalism and a free market economy work! People pay for the things that give them the most utility for their dollar, and THEY get to choose that. Not you, not the feds, the consumer does.

The argument that the utility of gambling is uncertain and therefore it should be illegal is absolutely ridiculous as any other entertainment product suffers from the same issue. If your argument is that online gambling should be illegal because it ruins lives, then you better take the same stance with casinos, home games, state-run lotteries, alcohol, tobacco, race car driving, driving a car in general, working construction, etc.

If its only when it leads to people losing money in a situation where the outcome is uncertain, you better ban the stock market, all forms of investing, starting your own business, and paying to go to university for the hopes of finding a better paying job.

I am sorry to just go crazy, but there are severe holes in your logic here. I really don't see where it ends. You cannot arbitrarily decide what you think is just too bad and what isn't. You say some 20-somethings don't get to be rich, who cares, at least we save people. Besides the fact that addicts will still gamble, whats next? We can't allow people to put it all on the line to start a new business with a product or service they believe in simply because more of them fail than succeed? I can't even get into how that would affect our economic situation as a country.

I know I carried on forever, but I hope you see my point.
THIS for the most part.

Some valid points, but I don't see how you can just make the jump and say "hmm that sounds bad, we should BAN it." The goal of laws should be to maximize people's freedoms, not arbitrarily limit them.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:32 PM   #377
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by Oopspoops View Post
lol america for the lose.


lets just ban everything because the internets are evil.


i love Canada, no tax EVER, keep 100% of profits every year, and I can actually play poker! wow!
wtf is this true? if thats true that really might be worth jumping across the border. i already live in northern ohio so its not like it'd be a far move.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:33 PM   #378
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

This, from the state that elected Jesse Ventura? I thought Minny was a progressive state. Must be a republican controlled house, or they want their piece of the online pie.

that is all
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:38 PM   #379
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by 4ObliVioN4 View Post
wtf is this true? if thats true that really might be worth jumping across the border. i already live in northern ohio so its not like it'd be a far move.
You still owe income tax to the US if you do this for some absurd period of time.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:41 PM   #380
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by aarono2690 View Post
Will it be atleat a few weeks before this gets implemented? Someone sort of answered earlier but it was very vague.

I want to grind some 25nl and 50nl on ft and get some rake back.
It's only going to get implemented if the ISPs comply. There's no telling if and when that will happen. I'd say your money is fine on FTP. I'm leaving my roll there.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:54 PM   #381
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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You still owe income tax to the US if you do this for some absurd period of time.
You can eliminate your US tax obligation by renouncing your US citizenship.
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:06 PM   #382
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by centerright View Post
It's also the only state that never went for Ronald Reagan
I'm proud of that (although I don't like da Democrats, either). Anyway, Canada is right next door. So it'll be like moving in with the neighbors.

That being said, this stupidity must be stopped!

Edit: On a barely related note, I typed "Michele Bachmann" into Google and the second option it gave for completing my search phrase was "crazy." I'm embarrassed to learn she graduated from Winona State (in my hometown), which is where I'm transferring. Unless online gambling's illegal there. Change of plans.

Last edited by SystEmsuX; 05-01-2009 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #383
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

funky - Renouncing your US Citizenship pretty much means you won't be able to come back to the country at all, right? In the very least I think it becomes more difficult. Please don't advocate something like this without giving the full story about it (not that anyone is just going to go and renounce their US citizenship based on one post on here but it just puts ideas in people's heads that likely shouldn't be there).
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:17 PM   #384
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

What the IRS does if you renounce your US citizenship

Quote:
Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition of the expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years following expatriation, and creates objective criteria to impose the tax on individuals with an average income tax liability of $127,000 for tax year 2005 (or higher amount for later years) for the 5 prior years or a net worth of $2,000,000 on the date of expatriation.
What the State Dept. says about renouncing citizenship.
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:31 PM   #385
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheer View Post
Is this only for xxxxx.com which means I still can play and access the client to play on?
Um, xxxxx.com is a porn site, not a poker site. It should still be OK.

In all seriousness, now is the time to panic! Sending the PPA letter now...
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Old 05-01-2009, 04:29 PM   #386
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Must be a republican controlled house
Both the House and Senate in the legislature here are under Democratic control. But this order came from the Executive branch which is under Republican control.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:02 PM   #387
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by faarcyde View Post
TheEngineer, was there any indication this was in the works or was it a sneak attack?

I don't live in Minneosta but it makes me extremely nervous to know that the powers that be can do something like this without any kind of elongated legal process.
It was a total sneak attack, just like the Kentucky one.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:04 PM   #388
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

CBS News Article. Digg/read: http://digg.com/d1q6Q5 Twitter: Click here


Minnesota Orders ISPs To Blacklist Gambling Sites

The state of Minnesota has handed Internet providers a 7-page blacklist of gambling Web sites that they are supposed to prevent subscribers from accessing, a move that raises First Amendment and technical concerns.

"We are putting site operators and Minnesota online gamblers on notice and in advance," John Willems, a Minnesota Department of Public Safety official, said in a statement. Companies that received the list of off-limits Web sites -- which was made public on Thursday -- include AT&T, Comcast, Qwest, and Sprint/Nextel.......
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:06 PM   #389
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Why does John Willems keep insisting that internet poker is illegal in Minnesota?

IT IS NOT
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:11 PM   #390
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by absoludicrous View Post
Why does John Willems keep insisting that internet poker is illegal in Minnesota?

IT IS NOT
AFAIK, he isn't citing MN law, he's basing this (falsely) on the federal Wire Act, and saying that makes playing poker online illegal nationwide. He's wrong.

Here's MN laws:
http://www.leg.state.mn.us/LRL/Issues/gambling.asp
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:17 PM   #391
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Anyone know if Willems bothered to get an opinion from the Minnesota Attorney General's office before pulling this stunt?
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:39 PM   #392
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by ErikTheDread View Post
Anyone know if Willems bothered to get an opinion from the Minnesota Attorney General's office before pulling this stunt?
There is a link to a short interview with this guy at http://www.mnpokermag.com
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:43 PM   #393
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Amazon gift certificate commission free FTW, otherwise Id agree

Surprised you cant get paid out with scratch tickets, Im sure thats coming

But you're ignoring that Amazon gift certificates would lead you to Amazon.com. Amazon is available 24/7 and could cause so called "shopaholics" to ruin their lives by recklessly spending. I mean what can't you buy on Amazon? This wretched hive of scum and villainy clearly needs to be stopped. Someone call Willems.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:45 PM   #394
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Submitted the PPA form letter to Feinstein, not that she has anything to do with MN. Her response-

----

Thank you for contacting me regarding Internet gambling. I appreciate you taking the time to contact me on this important topic and I welcome the opportunity to respond.

There is no doubt that the Internet and related technologies have had a remarkable effect on the U.S. economy in recent years. The flow of commerce on the Internet has enhanced American industry's ability to distribute goods economically and efficiently. The continuing development of this industry in California has provided hundreds of thousands of new, well-paying jobs, and I am committed to strengthening online commerce and preserving and expanding this vital job base.
While the advent of the Internet has been beneficial to American society, I believe the same cannot be said for Internet-based gambling. Internet gambling has become too easily accessible to minors, subject to fraud and criminal misuse, and too easily used as a tool to evade State gambling laws.
I understand your thoughts on internet gambling, and as you may be aware, I have supported legislation aimed at curbing Internet gambling during my tenure in the Senate. For example, I supported the SAFE Port Act, passed into law as Public Law 109-347, which included (as Title VIII) the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006.
Please know that I have read your letter with interest and value your thoughts. Additionally, I appreciate hearing your concerns that such restrictions are vague for poker players, and your support for legislation to exempt online poker from the Act. While we do not necessarily agree on this particular topic, be assured that I will certainly keep your thoughts in mind should this issue come before me during the 110th Congress.
Again, thank you for your letter. I hope you will continue to keep me informed on issues of importance to you. Best regards.

Sincerely yours,
Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator
----
laughing at her reminding me that she supports online internet bans, and then patronizes me with the "keep your thoughts in mind"

Last edited by MrDaveyHavoc; 05-01-2009 at 05:46 PM. Reason: spacing- thread hog
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:58 PM   #395
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

wow that's just not right
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:31 PM   #396
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Poker is all I have left. Those politicians can go fk themselves. I'll use a proxy if this passes.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:41 PM   #397
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halstad View Post
Is he in the Twins farm system?

u.s congress man from minnesota

keith ellison


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:49 PM   #398
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Opinions?

--------------------------------------

An Open Letter to Gov. Tim Pawlenty on the Minnesota Internet Censorship Plan

Dear Governor Pawlenty,

I am writing to express my displeasure with your state's plan to censor the Internet to stop Minnesotans from playing a hand of poker in the comfort of their own home. I ask that you stand up for Internet freedom.

While this action may have been initiated by John Willems, Director of the Minnesota Department of Public Safety's Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement Division (a department that is under DFL Secretary of State Mark Ritchie), it is yours now. You are the chief executive of your state and you clearly have the authority to stop this if you choose to. At a minimum, you can have the attorney general review it for legality or challenge it in court yourself. You can also speak out against it. If you choose to remain silent on the issue and refuse to act, Americans will (rightly) take this as your tacit authorization of a very unpopular censorship action. It will surely be remembered in 2012 if you choose to run for national office.

You have ample reason to stop this on purely legal grounds. Here are a few:
  • Many sites on the block order do not accept U.S. customers. As such, Minnesota cannot make a Wire Act claim for a block of such sites. Minnesota will just be blocking free speech. You can and should rescind the entire blocking order as a clear violation of the First Amendment protections of free speech.
  • The Wire Act has never been held to apply to anything but interstate sports betting. The state of Minnesota will be in for a long, expensive, and potentially losing court battle to get this definition expanded judicially.
  • Blocks by Minnesota would likely result in inadvertent blocking to residents of neighboring states. Other states may not wish for the Minnesota government nanny to "protect" their citizens from freedom.
  • The block order includes sites that offer only poker. However, games of skill like poker are likely not "gambling" as defined by Minnesota law. From your own state's website: "What about games of skill? If the activity is a game of skill, then criminal penalties don't apply. Skill activities might include darts, bowling and pool tournaments." Perhaps the State Attorney General's Office believes Texas Hold'em and other poker games are not included, but Minnesota will have to prove this in court, where poker has recently won several rulings in states with similar laws on skill vs. chance. Again, you may find yourself in for a long, expensive, and potentially losing court battle.
  • The block order irresponsibly threatened players' funds. Minnesota has made no allegations that players are breaking any state or federal laws, so this misleading and inaccurate scaremongering is reason enough to rescind the entire blocking order.
  • Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear tried to censor the Internet for online poker and gaming, too. When he initiated his protectionist crusade, he thought no one would object. Well, thousands of Kentuckians called and wrote. Additionally, pro-rights groups like the million-member Poker Players Alliance, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the ACLU, and many others stood up for Internet freedom and poker rights. Press was mostly negative toward Beshear's plan, and Beshear did not get what he wanted. He won at the circuit court level, but lost his case at the Kentucky Court of Appeals. He's now appealing to the Kentucky Supreme Court, where even eBay and Network Solutions have filed briefs opposing his unpopular actions. At least Beshear did this with a contingency-fee only law firm. Minnesota's taxpayers will be required to fund your state's expensive effort.
What's most important to me is your support for freedom. Please respond to this letter and let me know you will change your mind and support liberty. I will be watching your actions on this issue closely and, should you choose to run for national office, will definitely keep them in mind in 2012. I hope that I -- along with my over one million fellow Poker Players Alliance members -- can count on your support.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Rich Muny
Union, KY 41091
www.twitter.com/TheEngineer2008
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:00 PM   #399
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

TE, basically just ... WOW.

I can offer no style improvements, nor suggest a stronger wording on any point.

The only thing I question is the reference to Kentucky. KY is still an ongoing battle, and the political cost to Mullah Beshear is not yet proven at the polls (though I believe it will be). Hence this is the only thing you say that can be reasonably disputed.

I'd listen to what all have to say, but my 2 cents is to drop the reference to Kentucky and MAYBE replace it with a reference to Willems' expressed dismay in the PND interview at the amount of poker players who have called and expressed their opposition.

Skallagrim
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:05 PM   #400
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Re: Minnesota to Prohibit Access Between Residents and Gambling Sites.

Great letter. How do you ensure it gets past his assistants and into his hands?
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