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Old 10-09-2020, 11:58 PM   #12201
George Rice
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Why The Poker Community Should Fight Mike Postle To The Bitter End

I have read (and carefully considered) George Rice's compelling argument in reply 12172 of this thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...ostcount=12172

George argues that Joey Ingram, Daniel Negreanu, Doug Polk, Phil Galfond, Bart Hanson, et al. should accept their lawyers advice and settle with Postle - along with a stipulation that all discussion of this case (and terms of the settlement) cease once the agreement is signed.

George makes a good (a strong) argument, but this is the one case where the poker community should fight. If Mike Postle and Justin Kuraitis are allowed to get away with this relatively unscathed, it sends a message to all the other cheaters (as well as poker room operators like Stones) that they can do their cheating - and turn a blind eye to same - with impunity. If Postle, Kuraitis (and Stones) get away with this, it sends a message to all the other California card rooms that it's open season on poker players. Knowing they can't be held accountable and will pay a miserly pittance for a settlement in the rare cases when somebody like Postle is exposed, cheaters (and their accomplices) will continue plying their trade.

This case graphically illustrates the "big problem" with poker - as opposed to all the other forms of gambling that card rooms and casino operators offer. Unlike blackjack, slots, and all the other table games like craps, baccarat, and roulette; the operators have approximately zero percent incentive to stop player cheating. Poker is the one [casino] game where the operators really don't give a poop if somebody like Mike Postle is cheating his opponents - it's no sweat off their balls if Mike Postle is stealing other players' money.

If Mike Postle had devised a clever scheme - possibly with inside help - to steal money from the blackjack tables, you only need watch the movie "Casino" to see how card rooms used to deal with blackjack cheaters. For the games where their own money is at risk, casino operators watch those games like a hawk. In the "old days," somebody like Mike Postle trying to cheat at blackjack would have been 86'd - at a minimum.

If there was any doubt, this Stones/Postle case has made it crystal clear to poker cheats - especially California poker cheats - that they can practice their craft with relative impunity. From the cheaters perspective, the only "mistake" MP made was getting too greedy. If he had throttled his greed with an [occasional] spectacular bad call, (or had an occasional "losing" session), he would probably still be making a nice living plying his cheating trade. Because the operators will not police the poker games, (as their only incentive is in collecting the rake), it is up to us players to flush out (and expose) cheaters like Postle. (If we don't do it, nobody else will.)

This is easy for me to say as I'm not one of the defendants and I'm not paying for the cost of litigation. (I do intend to send small donations - maybe $100 each - to Veronica Brill and Todd Witteles once I find their mailing addresses, but otherwise I don't have a dog in this fight - I wasn't one of the 20+ defendants who have been sued by Postle.)

For what he has [allegedly] done, Mike Postle should be nailed to the wall. After the dust has settled and all the courtroom jousting is over, he should be left bankrupt and penniless. (Since what he has done is not a "criminal" offense under California law, we can't look forward to seeing him imprisoned, but that would be just punishment for his deeds.) This is the one case where we need to make an example of Mike Postle - he must be forced to pay a high price for the damage he has inflicted on the poker community. (Postle deciding to sue Veronica, Polk, Ingram, Negreanu, Galfond, Witteles, et al. for "defamation" is equivalent to pouring salt in the wound - as if he's laughing and gloating while holding up his middle finger.)

If we, the collective poker community, allow Postle, Kuraitis, and card room operators like Stones to get away with such blatant cheating; we will have only ourselves to blame when the games become impossible to [honestly] beat. By filing his lawsuit, Postle has declared war - he is in effect declaring that he has a right to cheat and steal from his fellow poker players. This is a fight we can't back down from. We can't let Postle and Kuraitis do **** like this and get away with it.

Veronica Brill and Bill Perkins are the true heroes in this - along with all the other defendants who have stated that they intend to fight. (It is especially grating that Veronica is being made to suffer as Postle would probably still be pulling his crap if Veronica had chosen to remain quite. It took real courage for her to do the right thing.)

If we truly love the game of poker and want it to be a game of skill rather than a cesspool of cheating, we have a moral obligation to join them in the defense of our beloved game.

P.S. I agree with chopstick's suggestion that strangers should not be allowed to post in this thread.
That's not exactly what I said. First, as far as we know, no one has been served yet. Second, the potential defendants probably don't have lawyers yet, hence they don't yet have the advice of counsel. Third, I don't know what their lawyers will advise. Fourth, the defendants/counsel may want to go through the discovery phase before making final determinations regarding possible settlements. Fifth, if I had made such public statements and believed them to be true, and had the money and time to dedicate, I might very well let the case go to trial. But that's me.

As for what the potential defendants should do, I don't feel comfortable telling them that and won't criticize them for what they decide. Based on personal experience taking on an issue for the benefit of others that wasn't in my best interest, it doesn't work out the way you think. Others sometimes won't back you up or appreciate efforts made on their behalf. As for whether I think poker players will stick together on an issue, if history is any indication, that's a long shot. Most poker players are notorious for doing what's in their immediate best interest, let the benefit of the community be damned. If that was not the case, the rake would be lower in the low stakes games, and the Venetian wouldn't have a poker room (and if the current allegations are true, Stones would have to close theirs). But in this instance, the defendants are a small finite number and may very well decided to stick together. And most are popular enough to get the moral support, and possible some financial support, from the poker community.

But don't underestimate the influence of others not personally involved in these incidents, but who have a financial interest in the outcome of the lawsuit. The partners and investors of the sued corporations will have a say in any possible settlements. They may back up the accused offender or not, and may "out-voted" those who don't want to settle.
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:03 AM   #12202
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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IMO the defendants should go through discovery, depositions, etc. and reevaluate at that point if the case hasn't been dismissed.
That's sounds reasonable. But if my lawyer advised that doing that will add $10K to my expenses, but I would still have some chance of losing, I would certainly have to consider settling for an amount less than that, unless the issue was personal to me or I needed to make a point.
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:23 AM   #12203
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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See my post above. I could definitely argue (and feel confident enough that it's got a decent chance at winning) that a defemation/libel/slander claim arising only out of one's behaviors in gambling activities would be barred under the same public policy (and as far as I know, no one is alleged to have said that Postle is a bad father, or a drunk driver, or that he has STDs, or that he cheated on his high school tests, but only that he cheated at poker - if I'm wrong, I apologize).
You can argue that, but I suspect you're wrong. Calling someone a cheat is questioning their moral character. That would effect their life outside of the immediate circumstances. For example, if I had a reputation as a cheater at cards I might find it hard to get a job where I would be required to handle money, or in law enforcement. I certainly couldn't get a security clearance with the federal government.

Or to illustrate it another way, are you positing that if I shot someone during a poker game for cheating in California I couldn't be prosecuted because I did it while I was gambling? I don't think you are. But that might follow from your stated reasoning.
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:33 AM   #12204
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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That's sounds reasonable. But if my lawyer advised that doing that will add $10K to my expenses, but I would still have some chance of losing, I would certainly have to consider settling for an amount less than that, unless the issue was personal to me or I needed to make a point.
It pretty clearly is personal, at least with Veronica. There are also how many more videos you can sell due to the publicity of going to trial. Plus the opportunity to present evidence of truth in court.

Have there been other cases of suing for defamation, when the allegations were pretty clearly true? I mentioned the only case I know of was Oscar Wilde and he wound up in jail. I am sure that it was personal to the defendant. Obviously, there are different attitude towards homosexuality 130 years later.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:09 AM   #12205
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Personally, I think that those chasing Postle should stop, as they have won the moral victory, as thanks to their case the poker world now justifiably believes Postle cheated, and all recognise only the anomaly of the Californian laws not allowing gambling related cases has stopped him from being charged and found guilty on the preponderance of circumstantial evidence against him.

OK, so they have lost money to him at the table, but as I always think, you have to pay for your education in poker, and this was an expensive lesson to all involved against him. And the costs of things going wrong for them if losing are high, and not really worth the risk, and could outweigh the damages they would get if winning.

Similarly Postle has little to gain from trying to get legal revenge on those questioning his character, as he could take comfort from the fact that the case against him was never proven, and the risks of losing the case compared to winning it aren't high enough to justify continuing the action.

It is all too personal now, like a divorce case, where the people involved lose sight of the fact legal costs swallow up the assets of the arguing couple, no one wins apart from the lawyers.

The only good outcome would be gambling issues becoming legally enforceable, as that will prevent endless new Postles ruining poker and exploiting their legal immunity.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:10 AM   #12206
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Haven't followed this case in a while, but I'd imagine Postle is not in hiding at the moment. What exactly is keeping all the people who lost their money to him from collecting their money in their own ways or at least get closure by neutering him? Not necessarily advocating violence but I'm legit curious as he must have ruffled some nasty feathers in all those sessions -especially in the live-poker rec department- it seems very likely there's some people along the way he wished he had stayed away from if you catch my drift...
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:41 AM   #12207
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by eenvis View Post
Haven't followed this case in a while, but I'd imagine Postle is not in hiding at the moment. What exactly is keeping all the people who lost their money to him from collecting their money in their own ways or at least get closure by neutering him? Not necessarily advocating violence but I'm legit curious as he must have ruffled some nasty feathers in all those sessions -especially in the live-poker rec department- it seems very likely there's some people along the way he wished he had stayed away from if you catch my drift...
Your "drift" is that you want to talk around and pretend, in some weird macho posture, to discuss your "legit" curiosity about some revenge/reckoning fantasy scenario.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:42 AM   #12208
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Haven't followed this case in a while, but I'd imagine Postle is not in hiding at the moment. What exactly is keeping all the people who lost their money to him from collecting their money in their own ways or at least get closure by neutering him? Not necessarily advocating violence but I'm legit curious as he must have ruffled some nasty feathers in all those sessions -especially in the live-poker rec department- it seems very likely there's some people along the way he wished he had stayed away from if you catch my drift...
Poker players are about EV. Going to jail over some schmuck is not EV. Getting ripped off also doesn't make normal people into violent people.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:49 AM   #12209
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

There is absolutely no reason for the poker community to settle this when there is discovery and truth is an obvious defense and the deeper any person who understands any of math, statistics, poker or expert witnesses looks into his case the clearer it is he cheated and Postle is clearly bluffing to try and get settlements from the deeper pockets

There are enough deep pockets in the poker community (guys like Perkins) who would likely fund any expenses that the poker community couldn't quickly crowdfund

If 100k+ was needed for a legal defense I have no doubt it would be raised quickly. Postle needs to go down, and enough poker players are happy to chip in 10-100 bucks (or a lot more in the case of the deep pockets) to see it happen. I only donated a small amount personally as a token moral support (the goal was already met on Veronica's fundraiser when I saw it) but would donate a ton more if it would make the difference between the poker community settling or fighting this

He's just bluffing to try and get a settlement from at least one party, then will try and use that settlement as 'evidence' he didn't cheat to 'both sides of the story' the general public that isn't paying close attention
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:19 AM   #12210
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

IMO all those poker players who settled the last lawsuit for a measly $40,000 and let those guys off the hook are cowards and should be banned from the community just like Postle is.
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:22 AM   #12211
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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IMO all those poker players who settled the last lawsuit for a measly $40,000 and let those guys off the hook are cowards and should be banned from the community just like Postle is.

And if they didn't settle?
What would have been achieved?
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:25 AM   #12212
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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And if they didn't settle?
What would have been achieved?
Do I really need to spell it out for you? Leave the possibility for future litigation open but the biggest thing was not having to make a cowardly statement absolving the parties of any wrongdoing all for a few hundo. But you do you.
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:39 AM   #12213
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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And if they didn't settle?
What would have been achieved?
They got about $600 dollars each. But the point is, the early bailers out found the case wasn't the slam dunk they had thought it was, so they weighed up the pros and cons of carrying on, and decided it was not worth their while carrying on. And that is fair enough as I am not in their shoes, nor are any of us, so if they decided they wanted to stop, that is their choice, just as it was their choice in the first place to raise the case. Same credit to those who have chosen to carry on. This is all unprecidented, so the rights and wrongs will only be clear ahead in the future.

Those that did not settle include people with much more personal investment and knowledge and insight, Veronica, the lovely Duck who I so hopelessly fancy and am amused by, and Jake, well done Jake, not got any positive recognition for challenging what he saw on the stream, people I think are really genuine and offended by what happened and want to see justice happen against a repulsive dishonest cheating pig like Postle, who demonstrably would cheat his own brother, let alone people he misleads into thinking he sees as friends, and then rips off.
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Old 10-10-2020, 01:24 PM   #12214
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Your "drift" is that you want to talk around and pretend, in some weird macho posture, to discuss your "legit" curiosity about some revenge/reckoning fantasy scenario.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Fantasy scenario? This happens in homegames, I don't see how this is any different.
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Old 10-10-2020, 01:43 PM   #12215
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

The simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of civil litigation is settled out of court, somewhere on the order of 90% of all cases. I can’t think of a single case in our practice that has gone to trial without costing $40,000 in fees and we represent plaintiffs almost exclusively (who generally pay far less than corporate defendants). The usual pattern in our practice is cases either settle very early when it’s obvious one side will lose or at the conclusion of discovery & summary judgment, which probably runs around 10k on average. It’s pretty logical for defendants to complete discovery and take a shot at an immediate win and to settle if they can’t get the case kicked. Trials are expensive and the outcomes are uncertain when the facts are simple and easy to understand. In a case like this, where the average juror is going to be very confused by the evidence, I’d say the verdict is likely to be a coin flip even if those of us who understand poker find the evidence overwhelming.
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Old 10-10-2020, 02:13 PM   #12216
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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The simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of civil litigation is settled out of court, somewhere on the order of 90% of all cases. I canít think of a single case in our practice that has gone to trial without costing $40,000 in fees and we represent plaintiffs almost exclusively (who generally pay far less than corporate defendants). The usual pattern in our practice is cases either settle very early when itís obvious one side will lose or at the conclusion of discovery & summary judgment, which probably runs around 10k on average. Itís pretty logical for defendants to complete discovery and take a shot at an immediate win and to settle if they canít get the case kicked. Trials are expensive and the outcomes are uncertain when the facts are simple and easy to understand. In a case like this, where the average juror is going to be very confused by the evidence, Iíd say the verdict is likely to be a coin flip even if those of us who understand poker find the evidence overwhelming.
You said it better than I did.
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Old 10-10-2020, 03:24 PM   #12217
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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In a case like this, where the average juror is going to be very confused by the evidence, Iíd say the verdict is likely to be a coin flip even if those of us who understand poker find the evidence overwhelming.
It depends on what the case looks like after discovery etc. How much evidence of cheating will the defense find aside from that based on HHs etc.? Presumably a lot of the physical evidence has been destroyed, but that won't look too good. The complaint said Postle placed his phone there because he was overwhelmed with nude pictures from different women. How ludicrous will that sort of thing seem even to non poker players. How bad will Postle and JFK come off at depositions etc.?
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Old 10-10-2020, 03:40 PM   #12218
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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What a horrible take. Laws donít work like that.

The way to get Postle is burying him in his own lawsuit. If/Once it gets to discovery, heís toast.
prairiebreeze:

That's what I'm thinking. Once Postle's "entertainment lawyers" start getting buried in motions and document demands, (while watching the cost of pursuing this litigation skyrocket), it won't be long until they're waving the white flag. If there's any justice in the world, both his lawyers - and Postle himself - will rue the day they filed their little defamation suit.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:00 PM   #12219
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

As I understand it, no one has been served and nothing has been filed yet, is that correct? Can any lawyers comment on the possibility of him seeking quick settlement with any of the parties without doing these things?
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:46 PM   #12220
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by eenvis View Post
Haven't followed this case in a while, but I'd imagine Postle is not in hiding at the moment. What exactly is keeping all the people who lost their money to him from collecting their money in their own ways or at least get closure by neutering him? Not necessarily advocating violence but I'm legit curious as he must have ruffled some nasty feathers in all those sessions -especially in the live-poker rec department- it seems very likely there's some people along the way he wished he had stayed away from if you catch my drift...
eenvis:

I do not wish any mafia style "revenge" or physical violence visited upon Mike Postle. It would be tragic indeed if the poker world was deprived of a great poker talent due to an act of senseless violence.

After his defamation suit is concluded and he's totally vindicated, I'm sure MP is planning to start his own poker training site selling poker videos in direct competition against Doug Polk.

It's much better (and more entertaining) to allow the legal system to slowly grind MP into submission. It's roughly akin to watching a boa constrictor tightening the grip on its next meal.
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:12 PM   #12221
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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As I understand it, no one has been served and nothing has been filed yet, is that correct? Can any lawyers comment on the possibility of him seeking quick settlement with any of the parties without doing these things?
In our practice, cases very rarely settle at the demand letter phase. Usually when they do itís because the plaintiff wants something very simple, like ďstop saying bad things about me and if anyone asks in future promise to say a nice thing or Iíll sue.Ē Often if the statements are coming from a subset of employees, the employer wants them to shut up anyhow. Once in a blue moon, where the facts are so embarrassing that the defendant would be harmed by the complaint, they settle before we file. In those cases, we usually prepare the complaint and give them a copy advising them we intend to file shortly. We used to occasionally take cases where we were only paid to investigate and write a demand letter, but we stopped doing that because it basically never works.

A few more cases settle shortly after we file the complaint, usually where the evidence is pretty overwhelming and the other side does some internal fact gathering and decides they donít like the way it looks. Most cases settle anywhere from the start of discovery to the onset of trial. One thing you might be surprised to know is that judges often exert significant pressure on both sides to settle, sometimes threatening to make harmful rulings if one side or the other if they donít compromise.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:31 PM   #12222
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

A longtime paralegal's view on the recently filed Postle lawsuit

This guy claims the complaint or whatever it is was poorly written. Not sure how accurate the rest of what he says is, but I'm pretty sure the Sandmann case wasn't settled for a quarter of a billion dollar payout, when that was the full amount he was seeking.

I was wondering if the thing was written hastily because it was never intended to be filed.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:52 PM   #12223
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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The simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of civil litigation is settled out of court, somewhere on the order of 90% of all cases. I canít think of a single case in our practice that has gone to trial without costing $40,000 in fees and we represent plaintiffs almost exclusively (who generally pay far less than corporate defendants). The usual pattern in our practice is cases either settle very early when itís obvious one side will lose or at the conclusion of discovery & summary judgment, which probably runs around 10k on average. Itís pretty logical for defendants to complete discovery and take a shot at an immediate win and to settle if they canít get the case kicked. Trials are expensive and the outcomes are uncertain when the facts are simple and easy to understand. In a case like this, where the average juror is going to be very confused by the evidence, Iíd say the verdict is likely to be a coin flip even if those of us who understand poker find the evidence overwhelming.
Are you billing hourly for the discovery and MSJ or are you working the pre-trial phase for a set fee as some sort of hybrid billing? I'd say that 10k is a very fair price.
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Old 10-11-2020, 01:23 AM   #12224
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

From the article Tim quotes by the paralegal. The complaint doesn't go much into why the damaging statement were false because they are not false.

There are also issues about damages, because Postle is not prevented from playing poker, it has been hard for anyone to play with the lockdown, and he may not have paid taxes on large amounts of income in the past.

Another point, which the author does not go into too much is that the complaint also talks about Postle not being invited to games, but most legal games do not require an invitation.

Quote:
The Postle complaint, however, barely touches on the specifics of what the defendants did other than to say he was cheating and even more notably does not broach what Postle's defense might be to refute these allegations. Sandmann directly refutes the Post and other media outlet's assertions that Sandmann was being aggressive and blocking an activist's path by pointing to video evidence and the testimony of witnesses. Sandmann's complaint asserts his innocence. Notably, Postle's complaint does not directly address his innocence other than to state that the defendant's statements were false. It is perhaps a small distinction, but there is a difference between saying someone has made a false statement and saying that you are innocent and I think this is probably because the attorneys for Postle couldn't or didn't for whatever reason marshal any evidence that demonstrated why Postle wasn't cheating. Postle says he had a generally good reputation and has never previously been implicated in a cheating scandal. That's basically it. In the Sandmann complaint there is much more of a sense of the perspective of Mr. Sandmann and it point-by-point refutes the press coverage of the Covington incident and explains why it was inaccurate.
Quote:
There are a ton of other thoughts I have on the case including wondering how Postle will be able to demonstrate damages especially given that live poker has basically not been a thing for the last seven months or so given that COVID has shut down the casinos to varying degrees. Postle claims emotional distress and loss of invites to poker games, but he really opens a can or worms in that he will now have to go to discovery presumably and show his financial records. Based on some of what Postle has said about his internet winnings back in the day he may have downplayed them in his tax filings so he is now in the position of both having to open his records to show how much he was winning at poker to demonstrate his earnings potential and also to survive scrutiny given that he likely minimized his tax obligations which would also then dilute what can be proven about his earnings potential if that makes sense.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:03 PM   #12225
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by MOSH_POT View Post
Are you billing hourly for the discovery and MSJ or are you working the pre-trial phase for a set fee as some sort of hybrid billing? I'd say that 10k is a very fair price.
We typically bill hourly against a retainer. In some cases where the client is nervous about costs we will quote a flat fee up through MSJ (our practice is almost exclusively federal) plus costs. Our practice is a bit unique in that we exclusively practice in one fairly narrow area and our volume is such that we have a pretty good idea of what is going to be involved. We very often have experience with the adverse party and opposing counsel from prior cases, which also helps us estimate what will be involved. Of course, we are also sometimes spectacularly wrong.
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