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Old 06-04-2020, 02:19 AM   #10976
R*R
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I’m not quite sure about this bet proposal strategy.
Hindsights twenty/twenty.
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:56 AM   #10977
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

we are at a time of exponential innovation in technology. currently there is a generation of people in the workforce who don't understand this technology but are in charge of making decisions about it.

This also applies to things other than technology.

Let's take the people who have to make decisions about something like a poker livestream. Many people who work for an organization that governs poker admittedly do not know anything about the actual game of poker. They simply manage the various logistics surrounding gaming. Poker, as with chess or any strategy game, has evolved into a mathematical strategy that is beyond the understanding of the layman.

If you were to take a person who’s never played blackjack, and explained the game to them they could probably understand the game, and be a fairly competent player within a few days. They could clearly define the spots that should be a hit and spots where you should stay depending on the dealer’s holdings.

Poker is such a multifaceted game that it would be impossible to play competently within a few days and it would be impossible to not ever play and be able to identify cheating in a game.
Would a new player be able to win? Of course, there is luck involved but we all know poker is a game that relies on large numbers…these large numbers translate results and long term, new players won’t do well without actively trying to improve.
In fact, some regular players have made a stance siding with Postle, which is great because it keeps the game afloat to have terrible players in the pool, but it shows you how complex the game actually is, some people regularly playing the game are unable to identify clear and blatant cheating.

But I digress, let’s go back to the people who work for maybe a state organization in charge of regulating gaming. Are they hiring poker players who are well versed in poker? Not that I have seen, none that I have spoken to, they are simply employed to make sure that state policies are enforced and things are running smoothly. Do they care if there is cheating? It seems that they care if there is cheating against the house and not necessarily player cheating other players.
I want to go full circle here, back to technology. We are coming to an age of people who know how to use technology are going to hold a major advantage over those who can’t run a simple line of code or even remember their itunes password.

The people who investigated the cheating were not equipped or well versed in understanding the cheating potentials. They first don’t understand poker enough to know if there is cheating and they for sure don’t understand technology enough to know what things could be employed to pull this thing off. I would be curious to know if they have anyone who could scrape servers to see if anything was hacked or if any screen sharing happened.

What mike did was simply hack the system, he either had someone send him the information (either texting or to his bone conducting headphone), or he had the live stream sent to his phone. Either one of those are things that the investigators have NO IDEA how to detect.
What Mike did, as a decent person I would not recommend. He is a horrible human who pretended to be friends with me and many others while stealing from us, while stealing from a man dying of cancer. He is now endlessly trolling me and instead of feeling bad that he cheated, he feels bad that he got caught.

But, now is the golden era, where many of the people in charge of making decisions are not paid enough to be technically savvy (because tech jobs pay better than working for a gaming division of some sort) or went to school at a time where technology was a calculator. Either way, if you have the technical means you can run wild and steal from innocent people. Postle did and he is free.
And if he is innocent then he should be a millionaire soon as he is better than any other poker player we have ever seen.

Last edited by R*R; 06-04-2020 at 04:05 AM. Reason: I respect AP very much so I spaced her copy/paste
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:13 AM   #10978
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Polak View Post
we are at a time of exponential innovation in technology. currently there is a generation of people in the workforce who don't understand this technology but are in charge of making decisions about it.
This also applies to things other than technology.
Let's take the people who have to make decisions about something like a poker livestream. Many people who work for an organization that governs poker admittedly do not know anything about the actual game of poker. They simply manage the various logistics surrounding gaming. Poker, as with chess or any strategy game, has evolved into a mathematical strategy that is beyond the understanding of the layman.
If you were to take a person who’s never played blackjack, and explained the game to them they could probably understand the game, and be a fairly competent player within a few days. They could clearly define the spots that should be a hit and spots where you should stay depending on the dealer’s holdings.
Poker is such a multifaceted game that it would be impossible to play competently within a few days and it would be impossible to not ever play and be able to identify cheating in a game.
Would a new player be able to win? Of course, there is luck involved but we all know poker is a game that relies on large numbers…these large numbers translate results and long term, new players won’t do well without actively trying to improve.
In fact, some regular players have made a stance siding with Postle, which is great because it keeps the game afloat to have terrible players in the pool, but it shows you how complex the game actually is, some people regularly playing the game are unable to identify clear and blatant cheating.
But I digress, let’s go back to the people who work for maybe a state organization in charge of regulating gaming. Are they hiring poker players who are well versed in poker? Not that I have seen, none that I have spoken to, they are simply employed to make sure that state policies are enforced and things are running smoothly. Do they care if there is cheating? It seems that they care if there is cheating against the house and not necessarily player cheating other players.
I want to go full circle here, back to technology.[/B] We are coming to an age of people who know how to use technology are going to hold a major advantage over those who can’t run a simple line of code or even remember their itunes password.
The people who investigated the cheating were not equipped or well versed in understanding the cheating potentials. They first don’t understand poker enough to know if there is cheating and they for sure don’t understand technology enough to know what things could be employed to pull this thing off. I would be curious to know if they have anyone who could scrape servers to see if anything was hacked or if any screen sharing happened.
What mike did was simply hack the system, he either had someone send him the information (either texting or to his bone conducting headphone), or he had the live stream sent to his phone. Either one of those are things that the investigators have NO IDEA how to detect.
What Mike did, as a decent person I would not recommend. He is a horrible human who pretended to be friends with me and many others while stealing from us, while stealing from a man dying of cancer. He is now endlessly trolling me and instead of feeling bad that he cheated, he feels bad that he got caught.
But, now is the golden era, where many of the people in charge of making decisions are not paid enough to be technically savvy (because tech jobs pay better than working for a gaming division of some sort) or went to school at a time where technology was a calculator. Either way, if you have the technical means you can run wild and steal from innocent people. Postle did and he is free.
And if he is innocent then he should be a millionaire soon as he is better than any other poker player we have ever seen.
Summarized your post:

"Exponential innovation .... technology .... blah, blah, ... technology...
but I digress ....I want to go full circle ....back to technology ...technology... scrape servers ..... hack the system......not technically savvy.... went to school at a time where technology was a calculator ..blah, blah technical means."

Hey, when I went to school in the 1980s, my 1980s HP12C calculator was a technological monster.

Poker, the game, is not that technically complex, cheating in a live poker game by getting information illicitly has been around since long before Al Gore invented the internet. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gor...technology</b>)

You are just writing in vague circles and keep returning to technology as some sort of mantra. Were the cards marked or someone hand signaling cards, the cheating would have been much the same.

The involvement of "technology" did not matter one bit.

Last edited by Gzesh; 06-04-2020 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:15 AM   #10979
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

How is he trolling you Angry_polak?
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:22 AM   #10980
Angry_Polak
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
How is he trolling you Angry_polak?
multiple burner accounts, he makes new accounts on a regular basis, he has nothing better to do
https://photos.app.goo.gl/whDMpLPRJC96Cgn38

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R4cFJTa79p3RaYrVA

Last edited by Angry_Polak; 06-04-2020 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:49 AM   #10981
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Next time postle plays and checks his phone, to text or whatever, should make for some interesting table banter
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:13 AM   #10982
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

AP

I applaud you for coming forward. Any time you need assistance here in twoplustwo by PM or otherwise let me know.

You were the result of what started to be an epic thread here in NVG.

Last edited by R*R; 06-04-2020 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:32 AM   #10983
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by that_pope View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Are there stories where poker scammers get justice?
The Borgata? chip stealing (or were they fake chips?) flushing down the toilet incident.
that dude is one of the biggest morons AND he cheated the casino, not other players ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmbxr9 View Post
Just for reference, there's a local that cheated a home game for like 6 months... Admitted it, tried to "Make things right", but pocked tons of money.

This person laid low for like 4-6 months, then started showing up at the casinos to play, WITH a lot of the same people they cheated.
The people mumble under their breath "F*ck you, you cheater" or tell other people at the table that they cheated a home game, etc.

But at the end of the day, cards are dealt and nothing happens.

If Postle moved to like Chicago/Indy/Hammond or FLA there would be like 10% of the room that would think "Is that POSTLE!?!" and like that's it.

He'll be out there grinding in no time
+1 .... like mentioned already, much bigger names play out there and no one cares
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:19 AM   #10984
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I hereby pledge to verbally abuse Postle relentlessly from the second we sit together any should I ever draw his table if he ever plays poker

All poker players should do the same
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:34 AM   #10985
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Strange result that the perpetrator of the cheating is dismissed on all counts but Stones and Kuritis will likely remain defendants in the lawsuit with a third amended complaint. That amended complaint is essentially gutted for any real damage claims other than rake and maybe punitive damages and attorney fees. I suspect it will probably be dismissed for not meeting the 75k damages threshold for fed court later (or settled for nominal amount). Without a full understanding of the Kelly case, I find it hard to believe the Plaintiffs did/could not plead a sufficient COA to keep Postle in the litigation.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:01 AM   #10986
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Strange result that the perpetrator of the cheating is dismissed on all counts but Stones and Kuritis will likely remain defendants in the lawsuit with a third amended complaint. That amended complaint is essentially gutted for any real damage claims other than rake and maybe punitive damages and attorney fees. I suspect it will probably be dismissed for not meeting the 75k damages threshold for fed court later (or settled for nominal amount). Without a full understanding of the Kelly case, I find it hard to believe the Plaintiffs did/could not plead a sufficient COA to keep Postle in the litigation.

In Kelly, there was no question of the cheating.


From the ruling in the Postle case:



Quote:


In Kelly, three blackjack players sued a casino, the casino’s manager, and one of the casino’s employees for intentional misrepresentation, fraudulent concealment, conversion, money had and received, negligence, negligent supervision, and civil conspiracy following the discovery of a marked card scheme at the casino. The court upheld the trial court’s grant of summary judgment to defendants because plaintiffs’ action to recover his gambling losses were barred “under California’s strong and long-standing public policy against judicial resolution of civil claims arising out of lawful or unlawful gambling.”


While the Kelly court recognized California’s “public attitudes about gambling” had shifted substantially since the Supreme Court of California refused to recognize a cause of action on moral grounds, it held that the “public acceptance of some forms of gambling” did little to create an independentcause of actionto recover gambling losses absent legislative action to “enact[] a statute permitting the use of the process of the courts in California to resolve . . . gambling loss claims.”


Today, the California state legislature still has not created a statutory right to permit individuals to recover their gambling losses, although other states have done so

I read this to mean that the suit was doomed from the start.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:03 AM   #10987
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Can't quite believe anyone is giving @Angry_Polak grief, especially given how infuriating this must be.

Veronica, from what I have seem you have been a class act and displayed great courage to do what was right in the first instance. You then went on to demonstrate this strength of character throughout this sad episode.

I, like many, many others who have followed this, wish you all the best.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:18 AM   #10988
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

agreed, i legit had my own "why not do a sting operation and film his crotch or dare one of the drunk players at the table to grab his hat for the lols (in which case any listening deivce would be noticed if there was one)"

but none of us were there, we can't possible know what had happened and what options were available so i think launching critiques, especially timed at this point is a little silly
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:39 AM   #10989
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by that_pope View Post
The Borgata? chip stealing (or were they fake chips?) flushing down the toilet incident.

Edit: Yep, Borgata and fake chips.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...0SG1ZQ20151022
Such a great thread, top 10 Worlds Dumbest Criminals. Also made all plumbers turn over in their graves as it showed a total disregard or lack of even common sense with basic plumbing.


Regarding Postle, this was a Civil case, with different process, burdens of proof, etc etc than a criminal case.

I feel bad for Plaintiffs, they deserved to be compensated for the fraud (from somebody). The above attack on Veronica is ridiculous.

Larger issue for me is why there was never a criminal case?
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:56 AM   #10990
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

So if like Ivey, you bend the rules a little and take money from the casino there is a binding contract involved and you have to pay all your winnings, but for Postle it's totally different even though external device was used?

Also is using such external devices a serious crime in some other States, like Nevada?
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:01 AM   #10991
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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So if like Ivey, you bend the rules a little and take money from the casino there is a binding contract involved and you have to pay all your winnings, but for Postle it's totally different even though external device was used?

Different states have different rules.
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:27 AM   #10992
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

What if Postle now goes on the offensive and sues Joey, Veronica, and Doug? He could have a legitimate case and show some real damages.
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:35 AM   #10993
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by MicroDonkYT View Post
What if Postle now goes on the offensive and sues Joey, Veronica, and Doug? He could have a legitimate case and show some real damages.
If he really did cheat (he did), then that would be a very bad idea.
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:51 AM   #10994
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

And if OJ really did it, writing a book about it would be a very bad idea.
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:51 AM   #10995
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by MicroDonkYT View Post
What if Postle now goes on the offensive and sues Joey, Veronica, and Doug? He could have a legitimate case and show some real damages.
This is probably the wise move. They would have to prove he was cheating and the judge would have to agree with the defendants- really hard to do.

Does anyone know if the lawsuit was dismissed with prejudice? If not they can just sue him again in the same venue. If it was, maybe they can sue in federal court.

Would anything happen if each person in the lawsuit went to the police and filed a police report?
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:55 AM   #10996
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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And if OJ really did it, writing a book about it would be a very bad idea.
The difference is that by that time he was completely immune as he was found not guilty by a Jury and could not be retried even if he publicly admitted to the murders. He also already had the civil case which he lost, so he was safe from further persecution from that too. Postle can still face litigation.
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:56 AM   #10997
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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This is probably the wise move. They would have to prove he was cheating and the judge would have to agree with the defendants- really hard to do.

Does anyone know if the lawsuit was dismissed with prejudice? If not they can just sue him again in the same venue. If it was, maybe they can sue in federal court.

Would anything happen if each person in the lawsuit went to the police and filed a police report?
The reason this is a bad idea is that Postle leave himself open for deposition and cross examination in any lawsuit. Not a great idea if you really did cheat.
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:03 AM   #10998
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PLIKITYPLAK View Post
The reason this is a bad idea is that Postle leave himself open for deposition and cross examination in any lawsuit. Not a great idea if you really did cheat.
You can plead the fifth in civil cases it just doesn’t look great. It would leave the entire burden of proof on the defendants and if they can’t prove he cheated then he will probably win.
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:08 AM   #10999
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by fragglerock45 View Post
Also is using such external devices a serious crime in some other States, like Nevada?
yup.


Quote:
NRS 465.075  Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.  It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:

1.  Projects the outcome of the game;

2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;

3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

Ę except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

(Added to NRS by 1985, 970; A 2011, 216; 2013, 1317)
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:32 AM   #11000
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by R*R View Post
Hindsights twenty/twenty.
I actually typed this before reading the charges had been dropped.

I was talking about telling someone eager to make a bet that they were a huge dog.
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