Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2019, 09:11 PM   #8651
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
1) I think it depends on whether Postle was getting the live stream from the server, a Trojan on jfks laptop or through an accomplice. I assume a digital footprint of some type would allow someone to figure out when an unauthorized source was getting the stream. I assume that information would provide a link to Mike's phone. Unless he was dumb enough to have the stream go to his main cell, I would expect he used a burner phone that he took some precautions of being traced back to him. So I would assume that without getting possession of the phone, it may be hard link of the phone to mike. If giving up the phone sinks Postle, I don't think he gives it up.

2) I would expect the internal investigation would be turned over to the gaming commission and or police before any search warrants are issued.

3) I expect the initial defense filing would be a request for a stay if there was an ongoing criminal proceeding.
It all depends on how much of a priority this case is. But in high priority cases involving electronic evidence, they often get the search warrants out ASAP before devices can be wiped or thrown out and before ISP's and telecom companies scrub their records.

And if the prosecutors and police are waiting for Stones' internal investigation to come back, that basically would mean they don't care about the case at all.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:16 PM   #8652
wheatrich
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
wheatrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 21,254
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNYCEONE View Post
Just remember, there were potripper deniers also
Most of those people wish they could cheat and get all that money just like them. The rest are just children "you can't prove it neener neener neener".
wheatrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:17 PM   #8653
wheatrich
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
wheatrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 21,254
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olswang View Post
I do. Discovered incidents of it occurring are reported regularly.
Most people don't do what you would in a given situation.
wheatrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:25 PM   #8654
AceHighIsGood
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 163
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
LMFAO, those were 40 years ago with like 75 entrants(1980-1981). He probably could have kept on dominating if he wasn't such a coke head. Poker was a completely diff game back then where you could have a huge edge and ROI if you're a savant like Ungar was. There are way better examples of hot runs in more recent times. Why are we not accusing them of cheating? If Mike Postle crushed tournaments, it would work in his favor to prove he isn't cheating, but he doesn't. He only crushes live streams at Stones, and he crushes them in a way that can only be explained by nefariously knowing his opponents hole cards.
As you point out, when Ungar won BTB there were 73 and 75 entrants respectively.

When Brunson won BTB there were 22 and 34 entrants.

I'm not counting Moss winning BTB because that was just a vote on who the best player was.

More impressively, when Johnny Chan won BTB there were 152 and 167 entrants.

Anyway none of this is particularly unlikely. Keeping in mind that someone has to win any given year, the probability that the same person wins it the next year is not that low.
AceHighIsGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:42 PM   #8655
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,914
Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AceHighIsGood View Post
As you point out, when Ungar won BTB there were 73 and 75 entrants respectively.



When Brunson won BTB there were 22 and 34 entrants.



I'm not counting Moss winning BTB because that was just a vote on who the best player was.



More impressively, when Johnny Chan won BTB there were 152 and 167 entrants.



Anyway none of this is particularly unlikely. Keeping in mind that someone has to win any given year, the probability that the same person wins it the next year is not that low.


Harrington’s back to back top 5 finishes is more impressive than any listed above

So was Mark Newhouse’s back to back final tables
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:49 PM   #8656
rallydurham
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 141
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

This thread is so over the top its absolutely ridiculous.

People are throwing around words like jury, evidence, motion, etc that they barely understand.

The chances of this even reaching a criminal trial are near zero and the chances of a conviction are zero.

Civil suits look like hail Mary's. Congrats at finding a bus stop lawyer to take the case. But if your lawyer doesnt have $15 to park his car, what are the chances he even shows up for court?

I've been on this website nearly 20 years. Kids these days need a huge wake up call. They dont live in the real world.

That money was stolen clean and square. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and as soon as mike cashed those chips they became his.
rallydurham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:51 PM   #8657
DumbosTrunk
Pooh-Bah
 
DumbosTrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,223
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
It all depends on how much of a priority this case is. But in high priority cases involving electronic evidence, they often get the search warrants out ASAP before devices can be wiped or thrown out and before ISP's and telecom companies scrub their records.

And if the prosecutors and police are waiting for Stones' internal investigation to come back, that basically would mean they don't care about the case at all.
It’s weird how long it’s taking them to arrest the guy, search his house for evidence, etc. I’m surprised they haven’t yet. All they need is probable cause and we have way more than that. Maybe the police don’t know what they’re doing? It’s a local department after all. Maybe they don’t have the capabilities to investigate this type of crime and need to refer it to the FBI?
DumbosTrunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:51 PM   #8658
jjjou812
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,551
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
It all depends on how much of a priority this case is. But in high priority cases involving electronic evidence, they often get the search warrants out ASAP before devices can be wiped or thrown out and before ISP's and telecom companies scrub their records.

And if the prosecutors and police are waiting for Stones' internal investigation to come back, that basically would mean they don't care about the case at all.
Stones has a two week jump on any criminal investigation, a high rent attorney and a computer expert involved already. Not that we are "in the know" but I have not heard anything about the players filing charges or complaints with gaming.

Given the nature of the evidence, an agreement to share results of the internal investigation before any prosecutor would do an investigation would not surprise me.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:05 PM   #8659
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
It’s weird how long it’s taking them to arrest the guy, search his house for evidence, etc. I’m surprised they haven’t yet. All they need is probable cause and we have way more than that. Maybe the police don’t know what they’re doing? It’s a local department after all. Maybe they don’t have the capabilities to investigate this type of crime and need to refer it to the FBI?
Probable cause for a warrant is what the judge thinks is probable cause, not the police: and it's a judge who has to sign off on warrants. Also; you don't arrest someone and then look for probable cause. I guess technically law enforcement could just go arrest MP now; just like any law enforcement officer could knock on your door and arrest you, because "probable cause." But I would imagine in either situation; neither you nor MP would stay in "jail" too long
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 PM   #8660
DHPoker
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: formerly <"))))>< and sqwerty12
Posts: 57
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallydurham View Post
This thread is so over the top its absolutely ridiculous.

People are throwing around words like jury, evidence, motion, etc that they barely understand.

The chances of this even reaching a criminal trial are near zero and the chances of a conviction are zero.

Civil suits look like hail Mary's. Congrats at finding a bus stop lawyer to take the case. But if your lawyer doesnt have $15 to park his car, what are the chances he even shows up for court?

I've been on this website nearly 20 years. Kids these days need a huge wake up call. They dont live in the real world.

That money was stolen clean and square. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and as soon as mike cashed those chips they became his.
This is what I was thinking. Is there even a criminal act here? What is the law that covers watching a live stream you shouldn't be watching? Is it implicitly stated that players shouldn't be watching it live if they find a way to do so?

Sure it's unethical, deceptive, sneaky...whatever you want to call it....but is it criminal?
DHPoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:10 PM   #8661
DumbosTrunk
Pooh-Bah
 
DumbosTrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,223
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Probable cause for a warrant is what the judge thinks is probable cause, not the police: and it's a judge who has to sign off on warrants. Also; you don't arrest someone and then look for probable cause. I guess technically law enforcement could just go arrest MP now; just like any law enforcement officer could knock on your door and arrest you, because "probable cause." But I would imagine in either situation; neither you nor MP would stay in "jail" too long
Judges are notorious for “rubber-stamping” warrant applications with their seal of approval. It’s not hard to get a warrant approved. And I never suggested the police should arrest first and investigate later. All I said was that they already have enough evidence to arrest him for fraud. He may also have violated the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act if he misused any of Stones’ equipment with his hidden devices.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 10-15-2019 at 10:33 PM.
DumbosTrunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:25 PM   #8662
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Judges are notorious for “rubber-stamping” warrant applications with their seal of approval. It’s not hard to get a warrant approved. And I never suggested the police should arrest first and investigate later. All I said was that they already have enough evidence to arrest him.
Whether or not you or I think they have enough evidence really isn't relevant: most cops I know don't delicate their decision making prerogative to people on the Internet. That said; maybe a judge has already "rubber stamped" a search warrant: point being; law enforcement aren't obligated to announce each and every instance of an investigation. You and I may want to know what they are doing, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to tell us what they are doing: silence from law enforcement doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing anything.
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:33 PM   #8663
Suit
Pooh-Bah
 
Suit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,751
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallydurham View Post
The chances of this even reaching a criminal trial are near zero and the chances of a conviction are zero.
I agree with this much of your post, but a civil case is the only real chance there is to punish these guys at all. There is a nonzero chance that they settle out of court to make it go away. Beyond that, nothing else will likely happen "legally". I think a little backstreet vigilante justice is in order however.

Criminally, all evidence is long gone.
Suit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:37 PM   #8664
DumbosTrunk
Pooh-Bah
 
DumbosTrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,223
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suit View Post
I agree with this much of your post, but a civil case is the only real chance there is to punish these guys at all. There is a nonzero chance that they settle out of court to make it go away. Beyond that, nothing else will likely happen "legally". I think a little backstreet vigilante justice is in order however.

Criminally, all evidence is long gone.
Not really. Everyone has a digital footprint. And if Postle destroys evidence (for example, his phone, hat, etc.) that in itself will be extremely inculpatory. Also, there are probably confederates of Postle’s who will cooperate with the government and testify against him before the grand jury in order to receive a lesser sentence.

It’s an old saying that you can indict a ham sandwich. You can indict Postle and his co-conspirators too.

So no, no need to resort to “vigilante justice.”

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 10-15-2019 at 10:56 PM.
DumbosTrunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:50 PM   #8665
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Stones has a two week jump on any criminal investigation, a high rent attorney and a computer expert involved already. Not that we are "in the know" but I have not heard anything about the players filing charges or complaints with gaming.

Given the nature of the evidence, an agreement to share results of the internal investigation before any prosecutor would do an investigation would not surprise me.
If any prosecutor signed such an agreement, poker players should mount a recall campaign against him or her.

Seriously, that's basically a non-prosecution agreement. Stones was part of the initial cover-up of this crime, and there's no way ANYONE should trust them or forego collecting evidence while they pretend to investigate.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:52 PM   #8666
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Probable cause for a warrant is what the judge thinks is probable cause, not the police: and it's a judge who has to sign off on warrants. Also; you don't arrest someone and then look for probable cause. I guess technically law enforcement could just go arrest MP now; just like any law enforcement officer could knock on your door and arrest you, because "probable cause." But I would imagine in either situation; neither you nor MP would stay in "jail" too long
This thread contains far far more than probable cause.

Again, any prosecutor or cop who has decided to wait on the grounds of alleged probable cause has basically decided not to prosecute.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:53 PM   #8667
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHPoker View Post
This is what I was thinking. Is there even a criminal act here? What is the law that covers watching a live stream you shouldn't be watching? Is it implicitly stated that players shouldn't be watching it live if they find a way to do so?

Sure it's unethical, deceptive, sneaky...whatever you want to call it....but is it criminal?
Yes. California has a statute prohibiting cheating in poker games as well as a statute prohibiting the use of any device to cheat in poker games.

Plus, cheating in poker games is prosecutable as ordinary theft and larceny by trick.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:00 PM   #8668
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
This thread contains far far more than probable cause.

Again, any prosecutor or cop who has decided to wait on the grounds of alleged probable cause has basically decided not to prosecute.
Again; law enforcement makes their own decision on probable cause: they do not delicate that to 2+2 members. Whether law enforcement "cares" or not about this matter, I have no idea: just like I have no idea whether there is an active investigation or not.
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:00 PM   #8669
auralex14
veteran
 
auralex14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,029
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallydurham View Post
This thread is so over the top its absolutely ridiculous.

People are throwing around words like jury, evidence, motion, etc that they barely understand.

The chances of this even reaching a criminal trial are near zero and the chances of a conviction are zero.

Civil suits look like hail Mary's. Congrats at finding a bus stop lawyer to take the case. But if your lawyer doesnt have $15 to park his car, what are the chances he even shows up for court?

I've been on this website nearly 20 years. Kids these days need a huge wake up call. They dont live in the real world.

That money was stolen clean and square. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and as soon as mike cashed those chips they became his.
'That money was stolen clean and square' might be one of the dumbest statements I've read in awhile.

Thanks for sharing your unqualified and irrelevant opinion, please tell us more about the 'real world.'
auralex14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:02 PM   #8670
dchoye
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 18
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

To the poker community it’s obvious he plays like he knows the other players hole cards . In a jury made of non poker players I don’t think that it’s possible to convince the jury he’s cheating without a smoking gun.
I’m sure this will be settled out of court as Stones doesn’t want more negative publicity.
dchoye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:08 PM   #8671
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Again; law enforcement makes their own decision on probable cause: they do not delicate that to 2+2 members. Whether law enforcement "cares" or not about this matter, I have no idea: just like I have no idea whether there is an active investigation or not.
1. I have no idea if there is an active investigation, as I would define it.

2. I have no idea if search warrants have been served.

3. My suspicion is that this is a low priority case for prosecutors and law enforcement.

4. I think poker players should be outraged if (3) is true.

5. If (3) is not true, then search warrants have already been served, as there is OBVIOUSLY probable cause and any prosecutor or cop who says there isn't is lying.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:09 PM   #8672
DumbosTrunk
Pooh-Bah
 
DumbosTrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,223
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchoye View Post
To the poker community it’s obvious he plays like he knows the other players hole cards . In a jury made of non poker players I don’t think that it’s possible to convince the jury he’s cheating without a smoking gun.
I’m sure this will be settled out of court as Stones doesn’t want more negative publicity.
He conspired with at least one other person. All you need is that person saying “we discussed rigging the live stream” and it’s over. As I said above, the government has ways to get people to cooperate.

Oh, and knowing half of the hole cards during that PLO hand weren’t scanned without access to the stream? How in the heck do you wiggle your way out of that one?
DumbosTrunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:14 PM   #8673
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
1. I have no idea if there is an active investigation, as I would define it.

2. I have no idea if search warrants have been served.

3. My suspicion is that this is a low priority case for prosecutors and law enforcement.

4. I think poker players should be outraged if (3) is true.

5. If (3) is not true, then search warrants have already been served, as there is OBVIOUSLY probable cause and any prosecutor or cop who says there isn't is lying.
Yes. We all can add "if this than that" factors ad nauseam to get to a specific conclusion
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:15 PM   #8674
JosephRellort
banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 93
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

So is Mike Postle in hiding or disguise or what? Many people speaking of street justice I don’t thin he can show his face anywhere
JosephRellort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 11:17 PM   #8675
TwitchySeal
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 331
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallydurham View Post
This thread is so over the top its absolutely ridiculous.

People are throwing around words like jury, evidence, motion, etc that they barely understand.

The chances of this even reaching a criminal trial are near zero and the chances of a conviction are zero.

Civil suits look like hail Mary's. Congrats at finding a bus stop lawyer to take the case. But if your lawyer doesnt have $15 to park his car, what are the chances he even shows up for court?

I've been on this website nearly 20 years. Kids these days need a huge wake up call. They dont live in the real world.

That money was stolen clean and square. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and as soon as mike cashed those chips they became his.
You're really smart. Everyone else is stupid. You've been on this website for 20 years (but registered in 2010) And the money was stolen clean and square. Got it. Thanks.
TwitchySeal is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive