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Old 10-13-2019, 12:20 PM   #8151
lawdude
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by snapdragon44 View Post
According to the Viva Frei livestream the lawsuit made a huge error not including the connection between Postle and the casino. Didn't Postle work for Stones as a consultant in the past, and didnt Kuraitis have Postle come out to help test the RFID technology? If anyone has evidence of these things and can supply it to the lawyer I think that would go along way towards the RICO/conspiracy charges. Casino employees cant play in the casino for a reason.
That is not an error at all. All you need in a complaint is to plead the elements of the claim and sufficient facts to support each element. One that is done, complaints are construed broadly and all sorts of evidentiary matters not contained in the pleading can nonetheless be introduced.

Many good lawyers actually do very short complaints. The reason this one was so long was it was really intended a press release, but in no way are the plaintiffs precluded from pursuing any theory about Postle having connections to the cardroom.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:21 PM   #8152
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Most probably some in this forum have had results like that. Not that uncommon. Even more common if your style is such that you book small wins over big win or big loss.

If you book win 190 or more times over 200 then it is not that common. Or you should have huge edge.
postle didnt book small wins, he booked gigantic wins
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:22 PM   #8153
IQofTwoPlusTwo
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
oooook what about:

jonny chan

archi karas, "the run" or however they called it , who ran 10k into what 17 million ?

phil ivey

dwan

etc..
Those are all random names. What about Bill Clinton? or Charles A. Lindbergh?

Show me the one example of a cash game player winning 180 out of 200 sessions (session being 5 hours or more). Just one.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:22 PM   #8154
lawdude
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
Joey, please tell me this is a troll. the amount of work it would take to go through each stream and meticulously tally the add ons, transcribe each hand, and then create meaningful stats on them is too much for one man.

I also noticed that Stones Live displays the actions of each player on the screen. If the players actions, the hole cards and the board were stored in a database, it would eliminate a lot of the work gathering all the data. That data would need to be entered into a program or manually calculated but it would still eliminate a lot of the leg work, and even at this reduced workload, it would still require a lot of hours and effort. I think the issue of add ons could be handled during discovery where they would attain Postles records of his winnings, which they could verify through cross referencing with current records, which would be much easier than doing it from scratch. If you do plan on doing this, we should start a gofundme for investigation papi to show our support, but I would highly recommend against it.

The screen was often inaccurate. Someone on the plaintiffs' legal team (and someone on the defense's as well) will have to examine all the video and determine actual amounts bet.

They will almost certainly get casino surveillance footage and b-roll in discovery, so that will become easier.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:24 PM   #8155
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Most probably some in this forum have had results like that. Not that uncommon. Even more common if your style is such that you book small wins over big win or big loss.

If you book win 190 or more times over 200 then it is not that common. Or you should have huge edge.
Can a mod reban this guy? Comparing win-rates from live and online is innacurate, why? Because when your playing live you are only playing one table, which means any variance you experience playing live, you will not see the amount of hands you need to potentially reverse that variance in one session. When you play online, even if you do experience some variance, you are generally mass tabeling and seeing so many hands, therefor you have a higher probability of being able to reverse the variance and comeout with a winning session at the end of the day, you don't have this ability when playing live.

Someone perma-banned this guy, he is derailing this thread and just repeating the same nonsense over and over.


mod edit: Asking for someone to be banned is itself a bannable offense. PiB's posts are receiving close mod scrutiny. Feel free to place him (or anyone else) on Ignore.

Last edited by whosnext; 10-13-2019 at 12:38 PM. Reason: added mod edit
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:24 PM   #8156
lawdude
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by slowlane123 View Post
Will the civil court hearing be open to the public in any way? How much will we find out as it progresses?

Sorry if asked already - trying to keep up but hard with this pace.
Every pleading will be on the PACER website, and any trial will be public.

The only thing non-public will be discovery.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:26 PM   #8157
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
Lawyers,
If plaintiffs can establish that Mike acted with intent to defraud could that change the theoretical damages award beyond his mere profit (or some other reasonable estimate)? I realize Mike not have assets that are recoverable, but let’s say he can get a million liquid: could intent to defraud unlock punitive/treble damages?
You might get treble damages under RICO, and they should get punitives, which will be between one and two times actual damages. Upper limit of recovery is probably about 1.5 million.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:27 PM   #8158
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
Theft at a card game: surreptitiously swiping someone’s chips off the table when they go for a smoke break, and then leaving the casino with the chips.

Fraud at a card game: what MP did.
Larceny by trick is a tort and a crime too, you know.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:31 PM   #8159
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
oooook what about:

jonny chan

archi karas, "the run" or however they called it , who ran 10k into what 17 million ?

phil ivey

dwan

etc..
Man you are clowning it up in this thread.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:32 PM   #8160
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Shark1980 View Post
One issue I thought kind of funny... If the Stones Live lawyer who is leading their investigation into this matter actually finds Stones Live negligent than he can probably not release that information using the attorney/client privilige reasoning, .
True enough (indeed, a lawyer's investigation is arguably privileged even when it exonerates the client), but part of the point of these things is to evaluate Stones' legal position.

In simple terms, if it comes back that Stones was neck deep in a conspiracy, the lawyers will most likely (1) offer the plaintiffs more money to settle and (2) advise Stones to throw itself on the mercy of the gambling commission to stay open.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:36 PM   #8161
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Over how many sessions?
I’m sure its going to take a while to find examples but I cant wait to hear back from you. My guess will be crickets!
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:38 PM   #8162
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Isn't the Mike Postle case about playing session after session almost perfect, when having his phone between his legs and getting his "reads" by looking down at it once in a while?

I don't really understand why we are discussing "rungood" here, Mike Postle doesn't have anything to do with this.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:39 PM   #8163
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn View Post
Can a mod reban this guy? Comparing win-rates from live and online is innacurate, why? Because when your playing live you are only playing one table, which means any variance you experience playing live, you will not see the amount of hands you need to potentially reverse that variance in one session. When you play online, even if you do experience some variance, you are generally mass tabeling and seeing so many hands, therefor you have a higher probability of being able to reverse the variance and comeout with a winning session at the end of the day, you don't have this ability when playing live.
Every player knows that you have bigger winrate when one tabling, and then even bigger if you are better than your opponents and play live poker.

But yes of course you can compare them. Nowdays very good winrate online is like 5bb/100 (multitabling like 1-2bb/100), and live like at least 10-15bb/100.

Amount of hands you need to reverse your losing session goes to power two (how many hands you need to beat variance). Thus you need like 80ish (or whatever you put your numbers) or so more hands to have winning session multitabling online than playing live. And so many times you have more winning session by live play, since so much higher winrate, that if you multitable online.

You would need 25*80=2000 hands / hour, if you want same amount of losing sessions than when you play live.

Last edited by PassiveIsBetter; 10-13-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:40 PM   #8164
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
Stu ungar won the wsop back to back.
LMFAO, those were 40 years ago with like 75 entrants(1980-1981). He probably could have kept on dominating if he wasn't such a coke head. Poker was a completely diff game back then where you could have a huge edge and ROI if you're a savant like Ungar was. There are way better examples of hot runs in more recent times. Why are we not accusing them of cheating? If Mike Postle crushed tournaments, it would work in his favor to prove he isn't cheating, but he doesn't. He only crushes live streams at Stones, and he crushes them in a way that can only be explained by nefariously knowing his opponents hole cards.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:44 PM   #8165
lawdude
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by JustSome1 View Post
Isn't the Mike Postle case about playing session after session almost perfect, when having his phone between his legs and getting his "reads" by looking down at it once in a while?

I don't really understand why we are discussing "rungood" here, Mike Postle doesn't have anything to do with this.
I actually do think his winrate was helped somewhat by rungood. He seemed to hit a fair number of gutshots and runner-runners over the course of his time on Stones.

But he was still, clearly, cheating, and cheating allowed him to maximize the value of his rungood (because he knew how much to bet or whether to check to induce when he got there).
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:44 PM   #8166
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Every player knows that you have bigger winrate when one tabling, and then even bigger if you are better than your opponents and play live poker.

But yes of course you can compare them. Nowdays very good winrate online is like 5bb/100 (multitabling like 2-3bb/100), and live like 10-15bb/100.

Amount of hands you need to reverse your losing session goes to power two. Thus you need like 80ish (or whatever you put your numbers) or so more hands to have winning session multitabling online than playing live. And so many times you have more winning session by live play, since so much higher winrate, that if you multitable online.
Once again, you misineterpreted what I said. Find a player that is playing live and booking wins 9/10 times over a long sample size, you will not find him because he does not exist, the ceiling effect that exist in poker will not allow it.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:46 PM   #8167
washoe
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
LMFAO, those were 40 years ago with like 75 entrants(1980-1981). He probably could have kept on dominating if he wasn't such a coke head. Poker was a completely diff game back then where you could have a huge edge and ROI if you're a savant like Ungar was. There are way better examples of hot runs in more recent times. Why are we not accusing them of cheating? If Mike Postle crushed tournaments, it would work in his favor to prove he isn't cheating, but he doesn't. He only crushes live streams at Stones, and he crushes them in a way that can only be explained by nefariously knowing his opponents hole cards.


He also crushed tournaments.

Hendon Mob
Mike Postle
Total Live Earnings $536,542
Best Live Cash $118,743
All Time Money List 4,050th
Connect with Mike
Nationality: United States United States Residence: United States Southaven, MS, United States
$500,000 milestone
United States All Time Money List 2,141st
Mississippi, USA All Time Money List 13th
All Time Money List Current Rank 4,050th
All Time Money List Best Rank 1,630th
Global Poker Index Ranking 4,313th
Popularity Ranking 3,444th
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:49 PM   #8168
lawdude
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Every player knows that you have bigger winrate when one tabling, and then even bigger if you are better than your opponents and play live poker.

But yes of course you can compare them. Nowdays very good winrate online is like 5bb/100 (multitabling like 2-3bb/100), and live like 10-15bb/100.

Amount of hands you need to reverse your losing session goes to power two (how many hands you need to beat variance). Thus you need like 80ish (or whatever you put your numbers) or so more hands to have winning session multitabling online than playing live. And so many times you have more winning session by live play, since so much higher winrate, that if you multitable online.
This is OT a bit, but I actually think a lot of live poker players overstate the differences between live and online play, and get sucked into wishful thinking about these things based on the fact that they don't have tracking software to track all their hands and because they think their amazing live reads allow them to do things they shouldn't be doing.

I would bet that OVER A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE OF HANDS (40,000? 60,000?), which in live no limit play would mean 40 hours a week for several years, the best live winrates are either no better than the best online winrates, or at best only slightly better. Because the reality is that in most respects the games are exactly the same, and while online players can misclick while multitabling, live players misclick too, because they are bored, distracted, or tilting. Further, many live pros make huge mistakes that they wouldn't make if they had a hand database showing them the plays actually lose money long term (again, often a result of boredom and lack of discipline).

I think the online stats are actually HIGHLY predictive of what Postle should have been able to do if he was a live crusher.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:52 PM   #8169
PassiveIsBetter
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn View Post
No no no no no no. You had said before that you can win 900bb/100 at 1/3 with skill
No I have said that you can make 1k$ per hour playing good 25$/50$. Size what they are pretty much playing. But yeah I accept there opinion, that not possible, but +500$/hour is possible.

When you play 1$/3$ with 25$ straddle it's like 10/20 not 1/3 anymore.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:52 PM   #8170
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
very interesting thx!

plaintiffs vs postle; kings casino llc D/B/A stones ( what does it stand for?, so it is the Kings Rozvadov?)

funny is that postle is easily the best player out of the 25 plaintiffs with the best results before the aligations.
It's a different 'King's'

d/b/a means 'doing biz as'

It doesn't actually matter WHAT the win rate is. The video evidence shows that, sometimes, he cheated. Whether he cheated when he was BEHIND (negative win rate) and the cheating got him EVEN, or he WAS even, and the cheating got him 100BB/hr or whatever, the evidence of 'perfect river play' and folding TPTK in quite a few places, and all the other plays no pro would make is the real evidence.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:55 PM   #8171
wiiziwiig
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
He also crushed tournaments.

Hendon Mob
Mike Postle
Total Live Earnings $536,542
Best Live Cash $118,743
All Time Money List 4,050th
Connect with Mike
Nationality: United States United States Residence: United States Southaven, MS, United States
$500,000 milestone
United States All Time Money List 2,141st
Mississippi, USA All Time Money List 13th
All Time Money List Current Rank 4,050th
All Time Money List Best Rank 1,630th
Global Poker Index Ranking 4,313th
Popularity Ranking 3,444th
If he isnt cheating, he should be #1 on that list. He hasnt even broken a mill in 16 yrs of poker while claiming to be one of the greatest players in the world. Dont get me wrong, 500k isnt bad, especially for his actual skill level, but its no where near the best and it certainly isnt crushing. Any fun player / business man could achieve that well within 16 yrs or less.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:56 PM   #8172
PassiveIsBetter
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I would bet that OVER A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE OF HANDS (40,000? 60,000?), which in live no limit play would mean 40 hours a week for several years, the best live winrates are either no better than the best online winrates, or at best only slightly better.
Not true at all. Online players are a lot better. And then there is possibility for live tells. Even if players are as good it can not be bad thing for good player.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:56 PM   #8173
Xenoblade
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

nah lawdude you're wrong about this, live games are way different, the reg/rec ratio is much better (as in more recs) so naturally winrates are going to be higher, not to mention lots of live games are playing much deeper than 100bb which doesn't happen that often online and allows for higher winrates

that said, Postle's winrate is obviously lol_impostleble
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:56 PM   #8174
washoe
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by swivet View Post
It's a different 'King's'

d/b/a means 'doing biz as'

It doesn't actually matter WHAT the win rate is. The video evidence shows that, sometimes, he cheated. Whether he cheated when he was BEHIND (negative win rate) and the cheating got him EVEN, or he WAS even, and the cheating got him 100BB/hr or whatever, the evidence of 'perfect river play' and folding TPTK in quite a few places, and all the other plays no pro would make is the real evidence.
if you want to bust him, you have to find out how much money he owed to someone. I heard that he owes a lot of money (could be fake news), and then u have a motive.
desperation. otherwise it doesnt make sense.

why would stones a multimillion dollar company risk their business for a few thousand dollars? and someone who can win without cheating?
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:02 PM   #8175
Grind On My Mind
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
No I have said that you can make 1k$ per hour playing good 25$/50$. Size what they are pretty much playing. But yeah I accept there opinion, that not possible, but +500$/hour is possible.

When you play 1$/3$ with 25$ straddle it's like 10/20 not 1/3 anymore.
They didnt play 1/3 25 straddle. They may have done something like that for 5% of the hands.

They did however play a match the stack game so if anyone doubled up they would be able to add money to the table and match that stack. They also would sometimes do a 300 dollar runout pre stream or inother words many at the table would throw 300 bucks and then run it out. The players could then match the stack of the winner.

Yes it is true the games were not your normal 1/3 500max games. They played a bit bigger. It was more like a 2/5 1k max type game. You have to factor many at the table having less than 1k as well. But the bottom line is when Postle got into big pots he always made the god mode decisions every single time by staring at his crotch. He didnt pick up live reads. He didnt stare at his crotch between hands. He stared at his crotch to see what his opponents were holding in real time during hands only after July 17th 2018. The evidence proves that!
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