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Old 10-13-2019, 05:06 AM   #8051
Jay Why
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by ukbilly View Post
Rick, I had been going through the thread again and noticed how new accounts turned up, supported Postle then left. I wasn't referring to one account in particular or even the add on argument.
If this is the Postle camp trying to make it look as though he has support from players it isn't a good way to make your case, as basically the long term posters here think he is guilty, and only new accounts, who know less about poker, and so don't understand the evidence, consider him innocent.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:08 AM   #8052
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Suit View Post
By playing he is representing that he is playing fairly.

Fraud: wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Explain how what he did doesn’t match the definition of fraud. He is deceiving everyone at the table for financial gain. It’s black and white.
You are assuming all deception is criminal or wrongful. People deceive otehrs for financial gain all the time. If the courts had to sort all that out they'd be overwhelmed. It's part of the human condition.

You have to show that he represented he was playiing fairly. You haven't. Just sitting in a game with no rules posted in a public business doesn't mean you suddenly are legally required to adhere to accepted notions of fairness. Think about what that would mean for our court system. Would pretending to be drunk or bad at poker not be allowed? Should we rely on the courts to decide that if some police officer decides that he agrees with a little old lady whose money was taken away from her at the casino by an evil poker player? So much for freedom.

If anyone is guilty of fraud for representing the game was fair it was the casino which, if these allegations are true, dropped the ball in a major way and, if not true, still seems to have treated security regarding this RFID feed very poorly.

If a casino cannot force a player who is all in from picking up chips and leaving with them because he didn't push them forward, then how can the police arrest the same player for fraud for not 'playing fairly'?

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Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
if I was to take an educated guess, the inclusion of fraud is possibly more aimed at Stones than MP. I suspect they are alleging that Stones was potentially in on it (I'm speculating here); if that were to be true, then there is certainly a fraud element as it relates to Stones and the duty of care they have to the players on their live stream that could constitute defrauding the players.
I agree and would add that it also may apply to any Stones employee and, perhaps, since MP was so much a part of the stream and participated in the booth promoting the stream that, therefore, he promoted the game that way (eg NOT only because he sat and cheated).

Let's be clear, MP was not included because they think he has any value as a defendant that can pay, only as a defendant that can illustrate the guilt of the real target of this suit: the casino. If there was no liability for Stones, the lawyers don't take this suit except pro bono.

Last edited by inmyrav; 10-13-2019 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:11 AM   #8053
Jay Why
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Postle said hundreds of people would defend him, but in reality there have been many players who have come out accusing Postle and finding him guilty, has anyone respected in the poker community still said they think he is innocent, as I can't think of a single example.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:43 AM   #8054
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
Postle said hundreds of people would defend him, but in reality there have been many players who have come out accusing Postle and finding him guilty, has anyone respected in the poker community still said they think he is innocent, as I can't think of a single example.
I canít either as anyone with half a brain that can use deductive reasoning can pretty quickly ascertain that he cheated. I think Mike expected this story to blow over and I actually think he bought into his own gimmick that he was a God of poker.

It actually reminds me a bit of what happened to Barry Bonds. Prior to using steroids and when anabolic steroids became really prevalent in the MLB, Bonds was by far the best player in baseball. He could literally do everything (think Mike Trout) hit for power, average, steal bases, play defense, etc. Then seemingly out of no where a bunch of less talented players were putting up insane numbers like Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire and getting a lot more attention, winning MVPs, breaking records, etc. People close to Bonds said this is what drove him to start using and prior to that he was very anti steroid/PED but his ego just couldnít handle seeing these guys that couldnít hold his jockstrap suddenly being touted as better players then him. He then started taking PEDs and we all know what happened next. But this explains why he always hated the media and was never able to admit or acknowledge he cheated because he couldnít say yeah well everyone else is cheating and Iím the best despite that.

Iím in no way suggesting Mike was a great player prior to cheating but from everything i gathered he was seemingly a winning/profitable player that was able to make a living playing poker, won a decent amount online, and had some good results. He was also named card player player of the year in 2015. Itís pretty obvious that Mike had a massive ego before he started cheated and then suddenly hes receiving all the attention he felt he deserved from between the stream, memes, JFK, etc. I think heís so delusional and an ego maniac that he really bought in that he was a poker God and being able to cheat just empowered and emboldened this belief. It explains why he just talks about how great he is rather then defending himself and also why I donít think heíll ever come clean despite it being about as obvious as a 42 year old baseball player adding 40 lbs of muscle in an offseason and subsequently hitting 70 home runs.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:44 AM   #8055
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
Postle said hundreds of people would defend him, but in reality there have been many players who have come out accusing Postle and finding him guilty, has anyone respected in the poker community still said they think he is innocent, as I can't think of a single example.
Depends if he's still considered respected, but Viffer made a bunch of posts defending him and saying it was a witch hunt etc, but might well have been trolling, it was hard to tell as he's pretty incoherent
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:29 AM   #8056
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Aaaaand then actual information content. If you don't play poker, or have big problems with basic statistic then ask anyone with that knowledge if I am correct, or not. I am pretty damn much sure that there is no big errors, but if you find one this is open forum (at least I hopeso), then please correct my mistakes.

Stones Live 1$/3$ is played with common UTG 25$ straddle, with a bit more rare second UTG+1 75$ straddle (pretty sure with this number), and then there are bomb pots where everyone puts like 50$(?) in the middle and call PF.

A huge difference how big a game played is between 1$/3$ blinds and 1$/3$/25$ straddle. Live 1$/3$ is like NL500 online and 1$/3$/25$ straddle is a little bit smaller than NL 2000 online (depends how deep players are). Then bomb pots and second straddle pots have variance close to NL5000.

By this we clearly see, that any conclussion based on winnigs in these games is wrong. Why? Because size of the game that is played varies so much. And so variance to expect varies as well.

Pots with second straddle and bomb pots have variance, which can exceed 100k$ with some very good or bad luck.

And then 1$/3$ it's pretty hard to run over 15-20k$ over EV
even when played deep.

Main point of accusations is, that no way someone can win so much with so small sample size at 1$/3$. Mike Postle won 70k$ there (or so it is claimed). Truth totally possible to win 100k$ with variance only with streak everyone who have played like million hands have had at some point.

Only way to truly solve this correctly is to construct real hand histories with real stack sizes of every player. Then put all that data correctly (which means check one, two and three times all the information), into hand histories and run statistical analysis from there.

Stack sizes and pretty much everything else shown in stream can not be trusted. Happens all the time in streams that player have more or sometimes less money than what is shown. One thing where extra carefulness should be put is that Postle likes to play deep and thus rebuys many times to a table maximum which is the size of largest stack in those games. This is wise move from player, who thinks he plays best deep and think he have an edge against all other players.

My estimate you need 100 more times than what is in stream to get pretty accurate hand histories without big errors. Doable, but slow. Not done yet, and it's a massive mistake since it is unlawful to accuse someone on cheating without evidence. There is no problem with accusations if fact are in your side of course. If they are not, and especially if you reach millions you are potentially deep in doo-doo. Not at all impossible to zero your net worth by accusing wrongdoings falsely.

And of course spoiled idiots think that laws are not for them.
Which is the reason that if at the end this comes to big nothingburger then I hope people who have made clearly missleading serious accusations are sued from left and right.

Last edited by PassiveIsBetter; 10-13-2019 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:32 AM   #8057
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Are there currently any real plans to transcribe all the hand histories from all the streams in a format that can be imported into Hold'em Manager/PokerTracker? In my opinion, that would produce the most damning evidence we could possibly get (aside from the official investigators finding bulletproof evidence via tech forensics on computer systems/phones, which we may or may not get). I'm fairly confident that if we could look at the myriad of stats available in Hold'em Manager for Postle's ~10,000 hand sample size from the streams, some of those stats would be so incredibly ridiculous that they would prove very useful in court. Completely accurate bb/100, standard deviation per 100 hands, river aggression, river bet success, etc. If we had these stats, and a lawyer who could explain to a lay audience the infinitesimal odds of Postle having done this legitimately (perhaps comparing it to the odds of DNA evidence being wrong), it would be very damning.

Obviously transcribing all the hands is a massive endeavor that a single person can't be expected to do, but is there a way it could be automated using optical character recognition, scripts, and maybe crowdworking?
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:07 AM   #8058
Jay Why
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Aaaaand then actual information content. If you don't play poker, or have big problems with basic statistic then ask anyone with that knowledge if I am correct, or not. I am pretty damn much sure that there is no big errors, but if you find one this is open forum (at least I hopeso), then please correct my mistakes.

Stones Live 1$/3$ is played with common UTG 25$ straddle, with a bit more rare second UTG+1 75$ straddle (pretty sure with this number), and then there are bomb pots where everyone puts like 50$(?) in the middle and call PF.

A huge difference how big a game played is between 1$/3$ blinds and 1$/3$/25$ straddle. Live 1$/3$ is like NL500 online and 1$/3$/25$ straddle is a little bit smaller than NL 2000 online (depends how deep players are). Then bomb pots and second straddle pots have variance close to NL5000.

By this we clearly see, that any conclussion based on winnigs in these games is wrong. Why? Because size of the game that is played varies so much. And so variance to expect varies as well.

Pots with second straddle and bomb pots have variance, which can exceed 100k$ with some very good or bad luck.

And then 1$/3$ it's pretty hard to run over 15-20k$ over EV
even when played deep.

Main point of accusations is, that no way someone can win so much with so small sample size at 1$/3$. Mike Postle won 70k$ there (or so it is claimed). Truth totally possible to win 100k$ with variance only with streak everyone who have played like million hands have had at some point.

Only way to truly solve this correctly is to construct real hand histories with real stack sizes of every player. Then put all that data correctly (which means check one, two and three times all the information), into hand histories and run statistical analysis from there.

Stack sizes and pretty much everything else shown in stream can not be trusted. Happens all the time in streams that player have more or sometimes less money than what is shown. One thing where extra carefulness should be put is that Postle likes to play deep and thus rebuys many times to a table maximum which is the size of largest stack in those games. This is wise move from player, who thinks he plays best deep and think he have an edge against all other players.

My estimate you need 100 more times than what is in stream to get pretty accurate hand histories without big errors. Doable, but slow. Not done yet, and it's a massive mistake since it is unlawful to accuse someone on cheating without evidence. There is no problem with accusations if fact are in your side of course. If they are not, and especially if you reach millions you are potentially deep in doo-doo. Not at all impossible to zero your net worth by accusing wrongdoings falsely.

And of course spoiled idiots think that laws are not for them.
Which is the reason that if at the end this comes to big nothingburger then I hope people who have made clearly missleading serious accusations are sued from left and right.
What is your explanation for Postle winning EVERY session since July 2018, bar when JFK is out of town?

If you refuse to consider this evidence, then of course, you will see no evidence against him.

And of course, he doesn't rebuy constantly to match the table chip leader, as invariably he is the chip leader.

And the current estimate of his winning since starting cheating in July 2018 is $350K, over 10,000 hands.

At NO point since he started cheating was he in trouble in a session, his trajectory each session was upwards, which is impossible in an unrigged game.

So my suggestion is stop wasting your time defending him until you have looked at the actual facts, and only then will you know what you are talking about. Or stop having misplaced loyalty towards Postle, as he is scum that would cheat a dying man.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:11 AM   #8059
PassiveIsBetter
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
What is your explanation for Postle winning EVERY session since July 2018, bar when JFK is out of town?
My explanation is LOL variance. Last week played 6 days. Won every day like 15 buy-ins from spins. Like every time there was coinflip I won, lol variance. Will be at other end pretty soon.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:12 AM   #8060
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
And the current estimate of his winning since starting cheating in July 2018 is $350K, over 10,000 hands.
And 1$/3$ is smallest Postle plays.

Maybe, just maybe you can make argument if 350k$ is exact number, that hey this guy win too much in games he is playing and it can not be explained by luck alone.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:24 AM   #8061
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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No problem with permaban. Mods please do it if that's what you are here for.

Old 2+2 was goldmine. Nowdays there is a very little amount of actual poker discussion here.
The evidence is in the last 8000 posts. Your previous post said we have no evidence. AGAIN, if you want to see the evidence read, dissect, follow the links within the last 8000 posts. I dont care if the numbers accumulated here are slightly off right now. We will get the exact amount of winnings from the streams in due time. Im giving you some homework below.

Go watch a god mode stream of Mike Postle. They are all online and you have over 70 to choose from. Go watch just one and see if you think he is cheating or not. If you dont think hes cheating watch 2 more. Then after you watch those 3 god mode sessions go watch a pre July 2018 stream and compare Mikes body language, phone usage, and most importantly his play. DO THE COMPARISON AND GET BACK TO US HERE BUD!

Also watch this from a successful poker pro who played against Postle on stream.

https://youtu.be/IF-em8yGTrM
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:24 AM   #8062
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
My explanation is LOL variance. Last week played 6 days. Won every day like 15 buy-ins from spins. Like every time there was coinflip I won, lol variance. Will be at other end pretty soon.
Do you play at Stones or Thunder Valley?
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:28 AM   #8063
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Do you play at Stones or Thunder Valley?
Online. Play like a hundred them per day. Still way above my EV every day.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:30 AM   #8064
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Game is clear now if I get banned here with no reason I will:
1) Contact Matt Sklansky, and remove my ban.
1b) If Matt Sklansky takes bullying mob side I will leave
2+2 and post my case and facts to pocketfives etc. And 2+2 will get one more professional poker player with lifelong hate towards 2+2.
Matt Sklansky literally trolled people who asked questions in a thread that was literally titled an AMA because he didn't want to answer questions about the book he was promoting but rather was hoping to steer comments only towards reviews and discussion without the Q&A.

He could have edited the title, he chose to troll people who asked questions instead.

He has zero fs to give about anyone here.

Please post your message here and his response if it comes, that will be a delight.

Also the likelihood of 2+2 caring about losing you or pocket fives caring about gaining you is even slimmer than the chances of you actually being a professional poker player but I admire a man with a wide bluffing range.

Here's a hint, if you were, you would in no way possibly believe he wasn't superusing. But even more telling, you'd realize just how little that matters here to anyone instead of putting what is rather common status here on a pedestal.

Also... hi mike
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:30 AM   #8065
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Grind On My Mind View Post
Go watch a god mode stream of Mike Postle.
Not going to judge live poker professional with 10+ years experience like ever bc he makes some ridiculous plays. Why? Because there is actual possibility for live reads.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:31 AM   #8066
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Online. Play like a hundred them per day. Still way above my EV every day.
Live poker is different from online because you only see like 25 hands per half hour. Mike played like 16 of 25 hands per half hour and dominated every single time with garbage holdings only because he knew what his opponents had. He went god mode as much as possible because the streams lasted only 4-5 hours. If you only play online then maybe you just dont understand live poker.

Ehh im done arguing with troll.

Last edited by Grind On My Mind; 10-13-2019 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:35 AM   #8067
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Also the likelihood of 2+2 caring about losing you or pocket fives caring about gaining you is even slimmer than the chances of you actually being a professional poker player but I admire a man with a wide bluffing range.
So? This site is business. Owner makes business decisions. Is it not that Sklansky is boss here?

I am totally ok to every forum owner to make whatever business decision they like. Not at all interested if Sklansky or anyone here is thinking that PassiveIsBetter is their new best friend.

I have zero need of validation pretty much from anyone.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:35 AM   #8068
Jay Why
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
My explanation is LOL variance. Last week played 6 days. Won every day like 15 buy-ins from spins. Like every time there was coinflip I won, lol variance. Will be at other end pretty soon.
Yeah, but the point you avoid is we are not talking about your play of six days, we are talking 14 months of Postle's non stop winning.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:36 AM   #8069
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Not going to judge live poker professional with 10+ years experience like ever bc he makes some ridiculous plays. Why? Because there is actual possibility for live reads.
You mean crotch reads right? CTO. Seriously though you admit to defending Mike but wont watch him play? Sick...
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:37 AM   #8070
Jay Why
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Not going to judge live poker professional with 10+ years experience like ever bc he makes some ridiculous plays. Why? Because there is actual possibility for live reads.
Idiot, he had his head down nearly all the time, he hardly looked at his opponents for live reads, as he already knew what they had. The only time he pays attention is after he has made his winning bet, so he can look at the opponent and laugh at them losing.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:54 AM   #8071
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PassiveIsBetter View Post
Online. Play like a hundred them per day. Still way above my EV every day.
A hundred what a day?

Iím not going to sit here and chastise you for having a contrarian opinion then the majority sentiment, but like it or not, the court of public opinion has clearly decided Mike is guilty of cheating and there is overwhelming evidence albeit circumstantial.

At this point itís up to those defending him to prove heís innocent, as pretty much everyone that has taken the time to dive into this story have come to the same conclusion. Iíve yet to hear a convincing argument proving he wasnít cheating. I actually want Mike to be proven innocent, as I feel this story will ultimately have a really sad ending. As much as I think cheating is reprehensible, Iíd hate to see him take his own life. Heís got to be in an incredibly dark place right now.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:57 AM   #8072
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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A hundred what a day?

Iím not going to sit here and chastise you for having a contrarian opinion then the majority sentiment, but like it or not, the court of public opinion has clearly decided Mike is guilty of cheating and there is overwhelming evidence albeit circumstantial.

At this point itís up to those defending him to prove heís innocent, as pretty much everyone that has taken the time to dive into this story have come to the same conclusion. Iíve yet to hear a convincing argument proving he wasnít cheating. I actually want Mike to be proven innocent, as I feel this story will ultimately have a really sad ending. As much as I think cheating is reprehensible, Iíd hate to see him take his own life. Heís got to be in an incredibly dark place right now.
Yea kangaroo court in U.S.S.A.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:58 AM   #8073
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Guys, he's trying to make the topic about him now... and it's kind of working.

Don't feed the trolls.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:00 AM   #8074
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

This message is hidden because PassiveIsBetter is on your ignore list.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:09 AM   #8075
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by kiddo1987 View Post
A hundred what a day?

Iím not going to sit here and chastise you for having a contrarian opinion then the majority sentiment, but like it or not, the court of public opinion has clearly decided Mike is guilty of cheating and there is overwhelming evidence albeit circumstantial.

At this point itís up to those defending him to prove heís innocent, as pretty much everyone that has taken the time to dive into this story have come to the same conclusion. Iíve yet to hear a convincing argument proving he wasnít cheating. I actually want Mike to be proven innocent, as I feel this story will ultimately have a really sad ending. As much as I think cheating is reprehensible, Iíd hate to see him take his own life. Heís got to be in an incredibly dark place right now.

Or maybe not. If he is a confident man, with a positive attitude, he will see the positive side. He gained fame now. His book will most likely be a huge success, his name is known to virtually every poker player in the world. Movie makers, documentary maker, news makers, they will all come knocking at his door.

There is a saying in psychology, which is used for people only see what they want to see.

And if you really want to find the truth, the winrates are superinflated most likely. Give us correct stats to begin with.
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