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Old 10-13-2019, 12:22 AM   #8001
rakemeplz
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozo7 View Post
Laying this hand down is completely ridiculous, especially when compared to some of the plays he makes. Greedy bastard probably could have gotten away with this infinitely if he was smarter about it.

+1 to kudos for Veronica for coming forward
I'm actually amazed at how little he lets himself get coolered or put money in behind. LIke he's 50% VPIP, but flops top pair good kicker, and he mucks it pretty quickly while looking at his blue glowing dick. Well played again, God.

He'll probably get away with it I guess though, eh who knows.

For all the people thinking he's some sort of criminal mastermind, well I'd need to be convinced of that one.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:39 AM   #8002
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I think players jumped the gun when getting into the class action lawsuit and it seems like the lawyers acted too quick before getting the proper evidence. I hope a few players decided to stay out of the class action lawsuit, they have a much better chance.

What what the rush into filing this lawsuit, other than they lawyers wanting to make sure they got as many of the players under them as they can?
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:40 AM   #8003
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Will the civil court hearing be open to the public in any way? How much will we find out as it progresses?

Sorry if asked already - trying to keep up but hard with this pace.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:41 AM   #8004
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Joey - i have a lot of free time at the moment and would be down to help you with this if you wanted an extra hand.
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Old 10-13-2019, 12:56 AM   #8005
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Xenicide View Post
And to prove my point further.

https://youtu.be/oOxc4qbQiLo?t=10681
He only shows the Queen after the guy mucks too. What a perfect way to play when you know the cards. Hats off to Postle on that hand!
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:21 AM   #8006
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Lawyers,
If plaintiffs can establish that Mike acted with intent to defraud could that change the theoretical damages award beyond his mere profit (or some other reasonable estimate)? I realize Mike not have assets that are recoverable, but let’s say he can get a million liquid: could intent to defraud unlock punitive/treble damages?
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:21 AM   #8007
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by quaid745 View Post
I think players jumped the gun when getting into the class action lawsuit and it seems like the lawyers acted too quick before getting the proper evidence. I hope a few players decided to stay out of the class action lawsuit, they have a much better chance.

What what the rush into filing this lawsuit, other than they lawyers wanting to make sure they got as many of the players under them as they can?
I don't believe this is a class action suit, just a civil suit with many plaintiffs. That said; what are they suppose to do? The plaintiffs, being regular people/citizens, don't have much investigative powers. They can't compel MP to produce documents, records, etc. without first filing suit. The discovery stage in a civil suit is an extremely powerful mechanism to get access to potential evidence. Heck, discovery in many ways is a big fishing expedition that allows the plaintiffs to cast a very big net. Generally, you don't even need "probable cause" to get access to things, which law enforcement would need to get a warrant. Plus you could potentially scare the other parties into a quick settlement and therefore a quick win. Sometimes you need to strike while the iron is hot.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:25 AM   #8008
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by slowlane123 View Post
Will the civil court hearing be open to the public in any way? How much will we find out as it progresses?

Sorry if asked already - trying to keep up but hard with this pace.
Generally court records are a matter of public record, perhaps with some slight variations depending on jurisdictions. That said, some things never make it into official court records due to privacy. As an example, if evidence included someone's bank statements for the last year, the actual bank statements probably wouldn't make it into the official public court records.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:35 AM   #8009
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
Lawyers,
If plaintiffs can establish that Mike acted with intent to defraud could that change the theoretical damages award beyond his mere profit (or some other reasonable estimate)? I realize Mike not have assets that are recoverable, but let’s say he can get a million liquid: could intent to defraud unlock punitive/treble damages?
I don't necessarily know what you mean by "intent to defraud." That said; generally speaking, fraud is a specific type of theft that requires certain elements to be present. False pretense is one of those elements. Another element unique to fraud and not all other theft crimes is that the false pretense generally leads to the victim voluntarily giving the criminal the money: think robbing a bank vs mortgage fraud, both are taking/stealing money but in very different ways. I can't see how cheating in a card game constitutes fraud: it's certainly theft, but I don't think it has all the elements needed for it to constitute a fraud.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:52 AM   #8010
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I saw a post that said JFK is not in on it. He does not have the technical know how, That it might be a production guy instead. It might be, but JFK an employee has some issues along with Mike P.

JFK and Mike P worked on a project together. Proven

JFK and Mike P worked on some type of Poker Stream together. Proven

JFK and Mike P know each other socially. Proven

JFK and Mike P are friends. Proven

JFK and Mike P are familiar with the Poker Streaming Process including software. Proven

JFK is and employee of the Casino and responsible for the game and providing a safe and fair game within the laws of California. Proven

JFK and the General Manager were watching the Live Stream without delay. This has been repeated by several people, so we will say. Proven

This also looks bad, because it shows that JFK and Mike P (and other people/players know that the live information (without delay) can be accessed from the GFX PC.) So, having one more person accessing it, might not be too difficult. This also looks bad for JFK and the casino - because the setup and configuration they are using is not secure, which shows negligence. And - why are they even watching the live undelayed stream anyway? This makes the JFK and Casino defense weaker. They knew the Live data could be accessed one way or another.


The Poker Software GFX - It does not take a highly skilled person to give out an IP address and Password for software they are familiar with.
The software itself has a tab like setting named Streaming. It is not hard to find. People being investigated (JFK and other Casino Staff) have access to the equipment and can set it up for others to view it without delay. Proven

If JFK is not in on it, then he is equally incompetent in job and did not provide a safe gaming environment. Proven.

JFK was told by Veronica 2.0 that Mike P might be cheating (this is the first time in Julyish). (might be considered hearsay - but other players have said the same thing to JFK - so we might be able to say substantiated) and because of a tweet - JFK confirmed an investigation occurred.

JFK told Veronica he did an investigation and found no cheating. Proven - because he tweeted that.

JFK will now have to produce documentation, reports, etc. that an investigation occurred. (If he really did one) This is going to be damaging to the Casino and JFK, they will have to prove an investigation occurred, prove who did the investigation, prove what was looked at and how they said the investigation found nothing. It will be interesting to note if the investigation indicated that JFK and the General Manager where able to view the Live stream without delay. If the report does not mention that fact, then the investigation is not complete and it is inaccurate, which proves negligence again.

Either way - if they did or did not do the investigation - it is likely the plaintiffs can make it look like cheating occurred. This could make them liable. it makes his case weaker.

JFK told Veronica 2.0 that Mike P was on a downswing 20 - 25 k, this is hearsay, but if he told other players the same thing when they asked or discussed Mikes play and win rate - and it is proven that Mike P did not go on a down swing, this is damning to JFK. If he is lying - it makes his case weaker.

Mike P said on a pod cast, he is the most winning player on UltimateBet, I suspect this can be proven to be a lie. If he is lying - it makes his case weaker.

Mike P said he has a medical condition of Blood Clots - this can be proven, medical records. If he is lying - it makes his case weaker.

Mike P said he was watching the Live stream on the phone tucked in his crotch. This can be proven, pull the internet traffic data records from the streaming services he claimed he was using.

Also pull the data records from the ISP's (which are required to stored) this will display what he viewed and when. They can even track his cell phone, and identify his WiFi Chip number, mas address, etc. This can be proven. If he is lying - it will make his case weaker.

It was mentioned that Mike P may have destroyed his phone - this is hearsay, but if they subpoena the cell phone/mobile device and Mike P says he got rid of it, no matter what his reason, this will be damaging to Mike P and make his case weaker. (why get rid of it - it could prove your innocence)

I do not remember all the public statements Mike P made on the pod cast - but go to each one and prove them right or wrong. All the ones that are proven lies, will make his case weaker.

The Same for JFK.

Just the few items outlined above do not prove cheating, they do not prove guilt or innocence, but the lies that will be discovered will weaken their case tremendously and that is how you prove your case, by building a case. A defense built on lies will not stand. The judge or jury will be influenced by the lies. If they are proven to be liars, especially about each other, then this cheating "thing" and them "not cheating" - they could be lying about that too.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:52 AM   #8011
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Elements of Fraudulent Misrepresentation

1. A representation was made (in contract law, a representation is any action or conduct that can be turned into a statement of fact).
2. The representation was false.
3. The representation, when made, was either known to be false or made recklessly without knowledge of its truth.
4. The representation was made with the intention that the other party rely on it.
5. The other party did, in fact, rely on the representation.
6. The other party suffered damages as a result of relying on the representation.

Postle entered a game of poker, representing that he entered the game without taking advantage of the other players’ through unnatural means.

Postle was, in fact, using unnatural means to procure an advantage (phone/headphones/etc).

Postle executed an intentional plan to hide the fact that he was using unnatural means to gain an unfair advantage over his opponents.

Postle represented to enter the game without using unnatural means, and

His opponents, naturally, relied upon his representation.

Relying on the representation that he was entering the game legitimately, many opponents lost pots they otherwise would have had at least a probability of winning, won less in pots they did win than they would have won without the false representation, and lost more than they otherwise would have in at least some pots based upon the same.



ETA: Under unjust enrichment theory, a court could award an “equitable” amount that could be theoretically higher than requested damages, no?
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:53 AM   #8012
BelizTheGreat
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Mike Postle Blue screen New pics !??

Hi Guys !!

Sorry if this is already known but i thought i would show it just in case i guess, i also find it very funny that it reflects in his glass's.

The Full video and time stamp :
https://youtu.be/nUr3WeFDHZM?t=1646

You can see very clearly that when he brings his phone up from his lap his screen reflects in his glass's .

Last edited by BelizTheGreat; 10-13-2019 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:58 AM   #8013
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 001001 View Post
I'm running blue screen + object detection for phones along with face recognition at the moment, it's just slow but it'll eventually post results (it's running slower than the frame rate of the videos but i'm going to parallelize it further)

Some of these tasks would be better to split up and assign out on Mechanical Turk and produce a comprehensive dataset of who played, when, hand history, seat positions, etc. - you can layer object detection on top of that but such a data set should prove very conclusive

There are also subtle little things that are hard to find - for ex. I spotted a video where it appears he is about to enable god mode, checks his phone and it appears it doesn't work, he then opens a text messaging session and subtly looks towards the TD booth after texting - he gets a response and then leaves his phone unlocked between his legs and is in god mode from then on

edit: here is part of that sequence:

https://streamable.com/uv4qv

note it freezes at the beginning because my ffmpeg slice missed a key frame

here is what I see there:

0:13 - sees a message notification and presses on it
0:16 - pulls back from table so nobody can see screen and reads message
0:23 - glances up towards TD booth
0:25 - presses 11-13 characters and space at least once and hits reply (not sure if we can figure out what he types here but the view is okish)
0:27 - doesn't lock his phone (screen still awake) and places it between his legs and pulls his chair back in

here's the glance



video slowed down 5x for those who don't want to download to slowdown or freeze etc.

https://streamable.com/3w3ux



This is a bit of a long shot, but could the message say "I love U"!? (Not in the romantic sense of course.)

The eight screenshots above of possible clicks are what I took first from the 5x slow version. There were two other screenshots that I also originally had- both of possible left thumb clicks- but having then watched at full speed a few times, I think there is only actually one single click with the left thumb (and the rest of the left thumb movement doesn't involve any clicks.)

I'm fairly confident that the left thumb moves towards the space bar and clicks (picture 2) but a quick click happens first with the right thumb on the top-right of the keyboard (Picture 1). The two most obvious possibilities seem to be "I" followed by a space, or "U" followed by the space. When I type "U" followed by a space of my iPhone it is auto-corrected to "I" "space" so my best guess is that the first two characters are "I ".

If correct, then it looks like the second word starts middle-right of the keyboard, then a click up-left from there, then down-left on the bottom row, and up-left on the top row. ("love" fits in with this movement, but perhaps some other word does too.)

Following that (in picture 7), I think he hits space with his right thumb. Picture 8 seems to be clicking the Send key. Perhaps there is an additional click before the Send key of the nearby U key that i didn't see(?)

"I love U" would appear to make sense in the context of the action, i.e. if God Mode hadn't been working and he then received a text notification that it had now been fixed. But equally, I could be getting overly imaginative!
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:59 AM   #8014
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
I don't necessarily know what you mean by "intent to defraud." That said; generally speaking, fraud is a specific type of theft that requires certain elements to be present. False pretense is one of those elements. Another element unique to fraud and not all other theft crimes is that the false pretense generally leads to the victim voluntarily giving the criminal the money: think robbing a bank vs mortgage fraud, both are taking/stealing money but in very different ways. I can't see how cheating in a card game constitutes fraud: it's certainly theft, but I don't think it has all the elements needed for it to constitute a fraud.
Isn't it a false pretense to trick people into thinking they are playing in a fair game when the opposite is true?

Also, I missed the civil suit thing. Someone actually filed a civil suit against Mike?
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:04 AM   #8015
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Theft at a card game: surreptitiously swiping someone’s chips off the table when they go for a smoke break, and then leaving the casino with the chips.

Fraud at a card game: what MP did.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:05 AM   #8016
jal300
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
Elements of Fraudulent Misrepresentation

1. A representation was made (in contract law, a representation is any action or conduct that can be turned into a statement of fact).
2. The representation was false.
3. The representation, when made, was either known to be false or made recklessly without knowledge of its truth.
4. The representation was made with the intention that the other party rely on it.
5. The other party did, in fact, rely on the representation.
6. The other party suffered damages as a result of relying on the representation.

Postle entered a game of poker, representing that he entered the game without taking advantage of the other players’ through unnatural means.

Postle was, in fact, using unnatural means to procure an advantage (phone/headphones/etc).

Postle executed an intentional plan to hide the fact that he was using unnatural means to gain an unfair advantage over his opponents.

Postle represented to enter the game without using unnatural means, and

His opponents, naturally, relied upon his representation.

Relying on the representation that he was entering the game legitimately, many opponents lost pots they otherwise would have had at least a probability of winning, won less in pots they did win than they would have won without the false representation, and lost more than they otherwise would have in at least some pots based upon the same.



ETA: Under unjust enrichment theory, a court could award an “equitable” amount that could be theoretically higher than requested damages, no?
Silence combined with others' assumption do not constitute a misrepresentation. MP, as far as I know, didn't say he was not cheating and the other players assumed (granted it's a normal assumption to make) everyone was an honest player. I get it; fraud sounds "sexier" and a much more serious crime than "cheating". Perhaps don't try and make something into "the more serious sounding" crime. There's enough wrong doing going on for MP to have serious problems going forward.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:08 AM   #8017
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
Elements of Fraudulent Misrepresentation

1. A representation was made (in contract law, a representation is any action or conduct that can be turned into a statement of fact).
2. The representation was false.
3. The representation, when made, was either known to be false or made recklessly without knowledge of its truth.
4. The representation was made with the intention that the other party rely on it.
5. The other party did, in fact, rely on the representation.
6. The other party suffered damages as a result of relying on the representation.

Postle entered a game of poker, representing that he entered the game without taking advantage of the other players’ through unnatural means.

Postle was, in fact, using unnatural means to procure an advantage (phone/headphones/etc).

Postle executed an intentional plan to hide the fact that he was using unnatural means to gain an unfair advantage over his opponents.

Postle represented to enter the game without using unnatural means, and

His opponents, naturally, relied upon his representation.

Relying on the representation that he was entering the game legitimately, many opponents lost pots they otherwise would have had at least a probability of winning, won less in pots they did win than they would have won without the false representation, and lost more than they otherwise would have in at least some pots based upon the same.



ETA: Under unjust enrichment theory, a court could award an “equitable” amount that could be theoretically higher than requested damages, no?
To clarify: when players enter a game of poker they are entering an implicit contract with each other that they will not use unnatural technological means to gain a hidden advantage.

There’s an analogy in 4th amendment law: when cops look through a home’s window with their eyes and see drugs on a table there is no “search”; when they use heat detecting tech to see the same drugs when the window blinds are shut there is a “search” and a warrant is required.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:13 AM   #8018
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Silence combined with others' assumption do not constitute a misrepresentation. MP, as far as I know, didn't say he was not cheating and the other players assumed (granted it's a normal assumption to make) everyone was an honest player. I get it; fraud sounds "sexier" and a much more serious crime than "cheating". Perhaps don't try and make something into "the more serious sounding" crime. There's enough wrong doing going on for MP to have serious problems going forward.
I disagree.

I believe every game of poker carries with it an implicit contract that one will not use unnatural means to gain an advantage.

Distinguish: Seat 3 doesn’t hide his cards when he checks them and they come into Seat 4’s field of vision. Seat 4 is not liable for taking advantage. Seat 3 assumed the risk of his cards being seen by his careless handling. However, if Seat 4 places a tracking device on Seat 3’s area of the felt, and Seat 3 can take no precautions to guard against the risk of his cards being seen, then Seat 4 is liable.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:15 AM   #8019
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suit View Post
Isn't it a false pretense to trick people into thinking they are playing in a fair game when the opposite is true?

Also, I missed the civil suit thing. Someone actually filed a civil suit against Mike?
If I stick my hand in my pocket and point my finger (while in my pocket) to the bank teller and say "give me all the money"; should I be charged with armed robbery or fraud? All kidding aside; if the other players assumed the game is honest (which is a normal assumption to make), but MP knows it's not (because he's cheating): MP not correcting everyone else's assumption doesn't mean he is making a misrepresentation. Silly as it may sound, a criminal is under no obligation to declare their intent to victimize you beforehand
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:17 AM   #8020
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

You can see his phone reflect in his Glasses , looks like a blue screen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUr3...outu.be&t=1646
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:21 AM   #8021
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsajaja View Post
I have not seen this here yet. There is little moment, when graphics changes AhAcTh9c to Ah9cTh9c.
I have not noticed this in other episodes and have no idea how relevant this is.
Maybe some who knows the technology can get something out of this.
8.10.2018, 2:16:38.
https://youtu.be/hcuBlBV0kRU?t=8198
AdTc8d2h --> AdTcAd2h, QdJd9h6h --> JdJd9h6h
It's really bizarre that Postle is shown as having the Ad twice, but only for one or two frames of the video. (It's hard to spot even at 0.25x speed).
It seems highly likely that there was an RFID error (why on earth would the opponent fold AAT9ds pre?) but I'm not sure what to make of it. Did the graphics mess up on the previous hand too?
Btw, when the commentators discuss the ridiculous fold, I think that's Taylor's voice coming from the peek room booth. (It's also a God mode session according to a couple of PLO experts).
Quote:
Originally Posted by momentaryblip View Post
Not sure if Mike is cheating in this episode
Veronica & Friends with BotLady & Brent / Jul 20, 2019
XcrazylegsX reported that one as a cheating session some time ago, but didn't give timestamps, so more research is needed. If anyone else wants to take a look, please do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNaugan View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pSUbMEXHGM
At 23mins he adds on for $200. At 28:30 he adds on for $400. Then around 1:09 he adds $1500 to his stack.
Thanks for this info about add ons. There are lots of little errors and ommissions in the sheets, but it's all gradually getting corrected and completed. I've added your notes to my version of the spreadsheet, and I'll pass on the details to the guys that started the first one. (Which was temporarily made private, but I believe is now available again).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenicide View Post
Which Commentators Vouched For Mike Postle ? Go easy on me boys, this is my first time ever making one of these contraptions.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ZsQ/edit#gid=0
The list of commentators might be useful in some way, but I wonder where your data for the God mode sessions came from. You've got many more sessions marked for cheating than I've seen on other spreadsheets. Many of those sessions haven't been fully investigated yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenicide View Post
Mike is 100% confirmed cheating in this episode go back and watch it.
He's not 100% confirmed cheating in that session, is he? In my sheet, based on a cursory skim through the session, the Q8 calldown vs Harlan's airball bluff was the only one marked as suspicious. Do you have other timestamps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocket_zeros View Post
VPIP can be derived from the elemental stats I listed.
I believe the Action Tracker software stores data for various stats. Indeed, they are sometimes shown on the stream. I've certainly seen them show numbers for each player's VPIP, aggression frequency, and showdown percentage, on screen.
Naturally they don't display all these stats right at the end of the session, but I'm inclined to think that the software keeps a logfile containing all the hand histories, or at least the action sequences, so I presume the lawyers can get their hands on that data, if it hasn't been destroyed.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:22 AM   #8022
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaitingForMPJ View Post
I disagree.

I believe every game of poker carries with it an implicit contract that one will not use unnatural means to gain an advantage.

Distinguish: Seat 3 doesn’t hide his cards when he checks them and they come into Seat 4’s field of vision. Seat 4 is not liable for taking advantage. Seat 3 assumed the risk of his cards being seen by his careless handling. However, if Seat 4 places a tracking device on Seat 3’s area of the felt, and Seat 3 can take no precautions to guard against the risk of his cards being seen, then Seat 4 is liable.
Even if your contract analogy were to be correct (and that's a big stretch), MP would then be guilty of breach of contract, not necessarily fraud. Listen mate; there's a big difference between a social contract and a legal contract: I may agree that a poker game involves a certain type of social contract, but nothing that even remotely resembles a legal contract.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:25 AM   #8023
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
The list of commentators might be useful in some way, but I wonder where your data for the God mode sessions came from. You've got many more sessions marked for cheating than I've seen on other spreadsheets. Many of those sessions haven't been fully investigated yet.
I did it myself, it took me like 10 hours. Feel free to check links for errors.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:26 AM   #8024
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

You don’t understand the relationship between contract and fraud.

Think and/or study a little more, and then get back to me.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:27 AM   #8025
Xenicide
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
He's not 100% confirmed cheating in that session, is he? In my sheet, based on a cursory skim through the session, the Q8 calldown vs Harlan's airball bluff was the only one marked as suspicious. Do you have other timestamps?
Use the first link I posted about scott and go back a few minutes and see the hand the commentators are describing. He is 100% cheating in that hand.
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