Okay this J4 hand is really effing weird.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/306445878?t=5300s

At 1:30:05 the guy commentator turns his around as if someone is speaking to him. Then tells the viewers "Oh, the booth is confirming, Taylor says it's actually jack jack" It definitely looks like he hears this message in person as opposed to headset, or something else. I then fast forwarded 28-32 minutes forward to see what happened near the table 30 minutes after the hand took place. I was trying to see any sign of Taylor walking out of the desk near the poker table to place him there and confirm he walked over to the commentators to tell them about the hand. However, it appears Justin was actually the one to walk over to the commentators and relay them the message.



I've added two arrows to the above graphic. There are two walkways leaving the room, I believe one is the entrance to Justin's desk and the other is for a bathroom or smoking area as people go in and out of it throughout the stream.I can't find a date for this video but thought it was in the fall of last year? However, the curtain between the poker table and Justin's desk is not up. Anyway you get a better glimpse of what's back there.

1:57:20 (note this is about 3 minutes before the commentators receive the message that the guy had JJ not J4). You see Justin walking outside his office over to some other tables. You can identify him by his shoes and jeans.
1:58:10 Justin standing next to Mike at the table, casually chatting with some players, including Mike and on his phone. I assumed he is watching the delayed twitch stream and waiting for the J4 hand so he can walk over to the commentators.
1:59:30 he leaves the table and walks over to the door of his office, looks in and then turns around.
1:59:47 he is cut off the screen walking towards the commentators booth. Note the timestamp above, this would be 18 seconds before the commentators receive the message assuming exactly a 30 minute delay.
2:01:08 he is shown back in the top left of the screen returning from wherever he was, presumably the commentators booth. This would be one minute after the commentators received the message.

This timeline is too perfect, it can't be a coincidence. I'm almost certain Justin walked over to the booth and told the two commentators "Taylor said he actually he had jack jack." What does this mean? I'm not sure exactly. At the very least, it places Taylor and Justin in communication during the stream. I think they are sitting right next to each other in Justin's office with the live production on one computer and the twitch stream on the other.

The real question is, would you invoke Lord Martingale in your defense?

yeah I think he did that recently, probably legal advice

But I agree it's massively shady how he even knows that
It comes across like he just makes it up on the spot as the chat was asking questions etc. Again the hand was not tabled, the dealer not informed the card was read incorrectly. I think he was just trying to cover up the play to downplay it and try to not get much attention on the hand. As the chat was massively interested in how one could play the hand in this way.

Mods could we possibly add some key hands/moments/analysis to the first post FAQ such as this? Lots of things being repeated now - I personally don't believe Justin is innocent but as far as factual evidence we have this in regards to the 88 into 87 scenario. Also I think Taylor could be updated since prevailing theories do have him involved as we are able to place him on production during the 86o into 98ss hand, as well as the questionable J4 situation with TT fold.

The twitter statement about it:

"Earlier this year an accusation was made that a player was cheating in our game

We conducted a full investigation & found no evidence that any cheating had occurred

Stones Live stream remains a secure poker streaming platform

The recent allegations are completely fabricated"



Sure lol , Most people who take this line of approach are up to no good

J4 hand analysis

Blinds are 5/5 with $10 straddle
Mike has 4.4k
Joe has 2.9k

Mike is UTG+2 with TT raises to $30
Jim 3bets to $110 with AKo
Joe is UTG straddle and calls 3bet J4o
Mike calls 3bet
Pot is $340

Flop is 247
Joe leads for $305 and takes it down.

Honestly, I'm not sure I could find a fold here, unless Joe is the biggest nit on the planet. Even though its a pot sized lead, it looks like Joe's just trying to steal, if he had a set or two pair, hed most likely x/raise flop or mb even turn on such a dry board. Joe would most likely 4bet KK+, he could also be making this play with TT-88, 33, 55, 66 as well as Ax suited type hands with 1 pair or a gutter with a backdoor flush; they are also deep enough for Joe to have 56s. Mike would have had to put him exactly on JJ or QQ, 2pair is not in Joes range (3bet pot while OOP) and who the hell would lead with a set on this board?


I wanted to look into his play here bc this hand is just so weird, so I just want to look at it from all angles to see if Mike could have made the fold without being told Joe's hand. It's possible Mike wasn't superusing this hand for whatever reason and 30 min later, the players saw the hand replay, needled Mike for making a shitty fold, and Joe told everyone it was actually a good fold bc he had JJ. The dealer then tells Taylor, who relays it to the commentators. But I don't see how Mike could have made this fold with the way the action played out in the hand.

Was it really JJ and not J4? Well, for Joe, JJ does make a lot more sense than calling a 3bet pre while OOP with J4o. I also don't think Taylor would lie about it since it is so easy to fact check this and there is zero incentive to lie here since Mike folding an over pair looks highly suspicious.

So how does Taylor know Joe has JJ to tell Postle to fold?

It might be worth mentioning that Harlan has JJ prev hand.

That could explain why they chose this game, but as you said, it's unlikely. If someone had this technology and wanted to use it in a game where they had access to the decks, they'd have to be pretty stupid to choose one where his actions and all the hole cards are streamed and available to all at any time. While MP doesn't seem that smart in that he doesn't even try to be subtle in his cheating, I'd give him more credit than that. Even if he had no other choices at the time, I'd think he'd wait and try to find an accomplice that had access to the ordinary decks instead.

My sister and her husband are lawyers, and they are nothing like this. whats your point?

If true he would have had that behavior before July 18th, unless he became a gambling degenerate on that exact day lol

Lucky you.

He found out how to travel time that day of course he's going to gamble degeneratly!

This is correct. You would have to physically destroy it. ie: drilling holes through it.

Source: I have an IT manager

Because the J4 shows as the inital read of the cards, which was incorrect. I don't know technically how it could happen, but we have seen it happen multiple times during the streams. So how does mike know its JJ? Well my guess is that the software corrects itself on the back end by showing what the actual cards are after they are placed back on the reader a second time... This is how the back knows it was actually JJ, and this is how Mike knew it was JJ and folded, because he is getting the information directly from the same software, or a 2nd copy of the software, or a person relaying the info from the software to him...

I thought Matt Berkey and Ryan Feldman already proved that cards cannot be misread, they can only be mislabeled. Prev hand can persist to next hand.

Every card has a specific number
It might be that the guy who's controlling this rfid **** swapped the 4d with Jx to cover up a previously Mike God hand and did not change it back yet.

It can't be shown in the stream, but can it be read again on the software? Like updated in real time? It has to be... Why else would he fold there? He has to have the information that it's actually JJ. There is no way to get that information unless its correcting itself in the preview window. The graphics will stay incorrect until changed by the user, but the preview window should show all correct cards if they are placed over the reader for the entire hand... How else would they EVER know that the graphics get messed up??

Is Mission Impostleble now the Chris Moneymaker of cheating?

Are there certains hats people are generally suspicious of having the bone conducting headset?

Cards can pass over a different reader, this messes up all the graphics right? So then I don't have the software so I cant' test it.. but in the preview window, does it show the correct cards after they are placed back on the reader? I'll have to watch more videos about how it works. I saw one, but I was focused on the MultiGFX option, which is how I believe this exploit is happening, but it was not mentioned in the video at all.

Exactly, So I think what's happening is this guy is swapping cards with other cards to cover up Mike's plays. So recently perhaps Mike was bluffing with J4o and he changed that 4 to a J to make it seem like Mike was just value betting a legitimate hand, JJ

You have to swap them, otherwise the next hand it can lead to trouble in the reading overlay as a card and be scanned only once

At this point even if Justin isn't guilty of anything legal. Anyway he keeps his job for being so grossly incompetent?

Has he been back to work yet since any of these new investigations have started? Wish I was closer would love to walk around that room. If they keep him on board it should kill the whole place. Not sure I could ever play there again

Where are all the Stones regular players? And all the players from the live stream table?

Why not speaking up here? Give some insights...how is the mood in the Casino? Is Justin working? And Taylor? What are the rumours?

My belief is that misread RFIDs happened enough that Postle deduced it must have happened in this hand, since he didn't believe Joe would be defending by cold calling a 3bet with J4os. He figured one of the cards was wrong, JJ and 44 were both possible hands, and folded. In the next 30 minutes someone verified with Joe what his hand was and found out it was JJ. Has anyone who watched this stream paid any attention to Joe and if he ever plays along with super awful cards out of position?

I also theorize part of the mystique of sitting in seat 2 is it has positional advantage on the two players next to the dealer most likely to have bad scans.

I can't summon enough strength to continue against lawdude and his straw man arguments, but I can cut you down to size Mr. IT Manager.

Nobody said "format". I said "wipe". Wipe as in start at sector 0 and write crap until you get to the end of the disk. That is why is takes a long time, potentially hours. We use DBAN here. Capisci? We good now? On the same page?

Source: Am the guy who actually went to engineering school so I DIDN'T END UP A F---ING IT MANAGER.