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Old 10-07-2019, 12:18 PM   #5376
parisron
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Old 10-07-2019, 12:24 PM   #5377
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

This cant be the first time RFID was used to cheat players! This is just the most egregious example of cheating in a RFID game. Not to mention marked decks and player/dealer cheating and Multi-Player cheating like in the movie Casino.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:25 PM   #5378
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Wauw, you sure know this is getting huge when the scandal is national news in the Netherlands. One of the biggest newspapers picked up on it and put an article about it on their website.

https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/ongeken...hter~a3ddf102/
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:25 PM   #5379
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I'm very late to this particularlar party, but I do have a couple of observations, one about the commentators and one about the legal system.

1. Re: the commentators. It's very difficult to figure out what was going on in real time. It all seems so obvious when you look at the videos frame by frame, but I was something of a fan of Stones Live, watched all the episodes, and just figured Postle as a very typical player I have seen in low limit games over the years- the guy who has good people-reading skills, and assumes that he can play anything he wants pre-flop because he can soul-read people after the flop and own them. And then he legitimately seemed to be running good. (And by the way, that's true- he really did run good in these games. He hits a whole bunch of gutshots and weird draws over the course of the year and half.)

I had no idea he was cheating. I just figured this was a LOLsoulreader on a big heater.

So the commentators probably thought the same thing. They weren't looking at hats and cell phones, and they weren't relating his play in any particular hand to other hands he had played a month earlier where he did a different thing against the same range. It just looked like he was a great reader of his opponents. Unless it turns out that certain commentators were in on the fix, I don't think we should condemn them.

2. About the law.

There's WAY WAY WAY too much pessimism about the outcome of legal cases here.

There is ONLY ONE reason to be pessimistic, and that is, prosecutors and regulators tend to do nothing about cheating. That's true. And the poker community needs to start hounding the Sacramento DA's office, the California Gaming Commission, the FBI, and the IRS, pushing for something to be done about this. Because there's a whole bunch of people who would like nothing more than to just do nothing about this other than maybe strip a couple of individuals of gaming licenses and maybe assess a token fine to Stones.

But in terms of what would happen if a legal case is actually brought? Well....

a. Cheating is absolutely against California law. We have very specific statutes on this.
b. Casino employees are licensed by the state, and a licensed employee participating in cheating is a felony. We also have very specific statutes about that.
c. A casino whose employees allow cheating is subject to severe sanctions, up to and including revocation of its gaming license.
d. Anyone participating in a scheme to cheat at poker is liable for fraud, unfair business practices, and/or theft/conversion, in civil court, including punitive damages.

Now, a lot of folks here say these claims can't be proven because juries won't understand the evidence. Hogwash. I could relatively easily explain all this to a jury. Juries put together circumstantial evidence like a puzzle. A jury may not understand the ins and outs of poker, but a jury can certainly understand "before he put his phone in his lap, he played normally, and afterwards, he played in a way that 3 experts testified is only consistent with his knowing the other players' cards" or "he only played in this way when his friend was in the booth; when his friend was on vacation, it stopped" or "after cell phones were banned, there was a bulge in his hat and all these weird movements where he seemed to adjust his hat".

NONE of that is hard for a jury to understand.

Further, don't assume the forensics in this thread will be the only evidence that comes out. IF law enforcement gets involved, there are going to be search warrants issued. Phones and hats may be recovered. Texts may be recovered by appropriate subpoenas. Witnesses may be interviewed, and information gathered. Even if nobody "flips", there's probably a ton of people who saw things. For instance, if someone acted weird in the "peek room", that may have been long stored away by an honest member of the staff, only to become relevant now.

THE ONLY thing that is needed here is for law enforcement to take this seriously. If law enforcement takes it seriously, it's not going to be that difficult to prosecute. There's going to be a ton of evidence and a jury will totally get it.

But the gaming industry is very powerful in the state of California. There's going to be a lot of pressure to sweep this under the rug.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:28 PM   #5380
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

godeep is a troll account but I started responding to some of his points so:

Quote:
Originally Posted by godeep View Post

- Chris Moneymaker has a long past of playing with him in countless joints and he says:
HE (Postle) is a "really good f@#@@ing player" why don't you take this into consideration?
Then why on the days that he is alleged to be cheating does he make so many poor decisions? Poker is a game of incomplete information and Postle often makes many decisions that would be incorrect with incomplete information but just happen to be perfect with complete information.

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Originally Posted by godeep View Post
This is very significant info to me. This shows to me, proves that he is a crusher who does not need to pull of this crazy stunt of cheating on a LIVE STREAM! who would do that?
Even a crusher can't win at anywhere close to as much as someone that can see hole cards.

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Originally Posted by godeep View Post
That would be straight insane! If they (stones and him) wanted to cheat they would certainly to it off stream where they could easily get away with wouldn't you think?
They could do just that and run away with x times the amount of 100k.
There is no RFID reader off stream, so it would be impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godeep View Post
In my opinion that alone is straight up crazy. (STONES AND POSTLEHAVE NO MOTIVE; IF THEY ARE MAKING THE MONEY THEY ARE MAKING WITHOUT CHEATING)
Apparently nobody that has ever been greedy has been guilty in your eyes.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:29 PM   #5381
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post

Have seen it. The point I made is what he said about his skills.

I am not Mike lol WTF
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:30 PM   #5382
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Iam wondering what can happen to Postle :

1- Is this going to the court with serious judge ?
2- is it possible he goes to jail if court say he is guilty ? whats the worse can penalty he can get ?
3- how likely is he got punched/beat because this ?
4- did he say anything ? did he confess ?

Sorry if obvious questions I have no idea how this is at USA laws. Here in Brazil this case would never ever go to court. Owner of the place would force Postle to pay back maximum he can and thats it.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:31 PM   #5383
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Old 10-07-2019, 12:32 PM   #5384
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

btw this thread remember epic 2p2 days when you was writing a message and while you wrote your message 5 new posts in 2minutes lol
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:36 PM   #5385
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Well that puts another prospective on it.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:37 PM   #5386
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Old 10-07-2019, 12:37 PM   #5387
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by godeep View Post
Have seen it. The point I made is what he said about his skills.

I am not Mike lol WTF
and what he says about his skills was mostly based on his play while he was cheating
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:38 PM   #5388
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
godeep is a troll account but I started responding to some of his points so:



Then why on the days that he is alleged to be cheating does he make so many poor decisions? Poker is a game of incomplete information and Postle often makes many decisions that would be incorrect with incomplete information but just happen to be perfect with complete information.



Even a crusher can't win at anywhere close to as much as someone that can see hole cards.



There is no RFID reader off stream, so it would be impossible.



Apparently nobody that has ever been greedy has been guilty in your eyes.

I am not trolling anyone, but I felt I have to say something about this. Am I the only guy defending this guy here? I could be waaay off! I know that. But to me it's innocent until proven otherwise. And if I hear Matusow saying there is nothing wrong with the winrate. At my local casino I 've seen pigs fly lemme tell you. If you have weak opponents I could imagine +100k in 30 sessions at 1-3 ( not sure what they straddeled but I've seen a USD 750 straddle at a 1 3 game veronica brill was playing in. Have you seen that? Watch her YouTube..
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:38 PM   #5389
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I haven't watched all the videos as closely as all the others, but it appears that pre 7/18 2:01 mark the pots were all relatively normal for a 1/3 game. I dont notice outrageous straddles or bomb pots. But come post 7/18 2:01 mark the pots seem to be huge. Around the time he seems to perfect his new strategy. It's also here when he becomes the fun and exciting player to play with he claims in the interview. Before that hes just normal joe at the table.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:38 PM   #5390
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoJoey View Post
It may be true that this is the result of what they did, but that doesn't mean it was what they were trying to do.

The entire drama of televised poker revolves around sick plays in individual hands. While PLAYING poker is all about the long term and math and statistical trends, ANNOUNCING poker is all about the short term and soul reads and sick calls, bluffs, and folds.

Plus, it is EXCEEDINGLY common that poker players make sick plays on television who are NOT cheating. So commentators are used to this. They are used to maniacs. When someone says "lol rigged", they are conditioned to ignore it, because people are always saying that even non-rigged games are rigged.

So what I am saying is this is exactly what you would expect from any set of televised poker commentators in this sort of situation.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:41 PM   #5391
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
To experienced poker players. A jury will have many with no knowledge of poker at all. It is highly likely that at least one would be confused and/or boarded against casinos or "low life gamblers". Get corroborating evidence, testimony from someone that was involved and flipped, etc....and it's a much tidier case to prosecute. The mere fact that there are some poker player ITT that believe he is innocent shows that the obvious is lost on some that handle some concept of the game. To a lay person......might create migraines. Attorneys have stated here the difficulty in taking the case based on complicated math. Negreanu gave an in-depth analysis on his Twitter page. "He cheated", entire dialogue. Postle isn't going to try and convince 12 experienced poker players he did not cheat. His attorney will seek jurors that seem capable of having doubt.
If this goes to a serious court the judge or the promoter (distric atorney) will hire professional poker players to talk in the court as "witness" and explain this to everyone .

This always happens at USA when a case need a specialist opinion in important court.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:42 PM   #5392
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

We'll see about that.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:42 PM   #5393
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltjr View Post
Decided to watch some of this 5/10 stream from 01/12/19 where Mike profited over 20k. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AADIsPTsxc The way he plays he has to know what cards are coming in the future. Hand at 1.23.11 he calls A2o pre against single raise who has QQ; multiway on A106 board he RAISES a bet on the flop and a Q ends up hitting the river. At 1.28.29 he raises K5 suited pre and flops KQ2 with the best hand. Its pretty scary. And then the hand at 1.05.00 when he bluffs JQQK turn with 85s against 87. OK
You have to keep in mind how someone's play changes if you know your opponent's cards. You're going to speculate preflop, and call 3 and 4bets when you know you have live cards.

I remember plenty of times where Mike's speculative preflop calls fail, like when Berkey's QTs flops QQT, Mike check folds.

I'm not sure how your observations are making the case, I should watch the stream. He raises with TPNK against QQ because he knows he's ahead. Why would he do that if he knew the Q was coming?

Having watched it, yeah, Postle doesn't know what's going to come, but he absolutely maximizes value with mediocre holdings.

I am not convinced he knows the cards to come, simply knows his opponent's cards
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:42 PM   #5394
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by BrianBigNFun View Post
and what he says about his skills was mostly based on his play while he was cheating

No it was not. They were playing heads up I think. I will look for the article I think it was on cardchat or pokernews. They were playing def off stream which MM was referring to. How many streams were back in the days?
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:43 PM   #5395
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by godeep View Post
I am not trolling anyone, but I felt I have to say something about this. Am I the only guy defending this guy here? I could be waaay off! I know that. But to me it's innocent until proven otherwise. And if I hear Matusow saying there is nothing wrong with the winrate. At my local casino I 've seen pigs fly lemme tell you. If you have weak opponents I could imagine +100k in 30 sessions at 1-3 ( not sure what they straddeled but I've seen a USD 750 straddle at a 1 3 game veronica brill was playing in. Have you seen that? Watch her YouTube..
Anyone who defends Postle does not understand basic of Poker or is guilty/team with him.

it is IMPOSSIBLE to defend him.

Edit: it is so obvious I feel like a clown wasting my time writing this post .
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:43 PM   #5396
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by urubu222 View Post
If this goes to a serious court the judge or the promoter (distric atorney) will hire professional poker players to talk in the court as "witness" and explain this to everyone .



This always happens at USA when a case need a specialist opinion in important court.
And the defense will hire their experts to contradict and the jury is confused.

The judge never hires anyone....
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:45 PM   #5397
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoJoey View Post
Even Veronica said Postle is a god. Mb SLP commentators should find a diff profession, but thats very different from being an accomplice to multiple crimes. With the data available, its pretty ignorant of us to accuse them of anymore than being blinded, following the SLP culture, and being jackasses. Hopefully you and Doug could release your insider info soon, or at the very least, stop broadcasting the call to action until you guys are ready to release it.

Great vid btw.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:45 PM   #5398
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
It may be true that this is the result of what they did, but that doesn't mean it was what they were trying to do.



The entire drama of televised poker revolves around sick plays in individual hands. While PLAYING poker is all about the long term and math and statistical trends, ANNOUNCING poker is all about the short term and soul reads and sick calls, bluffs, and folds.



Plus, it is EXCEEDINGLY common that poker players make sick plays on television who are NOT cheating. So commentators are used to this. They are used to maniacs. When someone says "lol rigged", they are conditioned to ignore it, because people are always saying that even non-rigged games are rigged.



So what I am saying is this is exactly what you would expect from any set of televised poker commentators in this sort of situation.
When the WSOP is shown on television, the hands are selected and some specifically to make for good TV. The Stones game was stream, start to finish with the boring parts left intact.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:45 PM   #5399
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
the forensics on the computer system should prove there was a hack and say more than enough of whats was going on. they dont need any professionals to tell them that "he should have bet/fold" His winning per hand and win rate and playing stats should say more than enough

Those are long gone now I'm sure.
Did somebody not mention a Google app earlier?? If Google, or any of the global players, have hosted any data on their servers, it's there for keeps.

Just have to get someone with the right authority to get them to give it up.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:46 PM   #5400
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PloEr View Post
Wauw, you sure know this is getting huge when the scandal is national news in the Netherlands. One of the biggest newspapers picked up on it and put an article about it on their website.

https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/ongeken...hter~a3ddf102/
lol postles gonna be banned from poker rooms world wide
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