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Old 10-04-2019, 10:14 PM   #3476
bigdave2304
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

And stones is going to watch the floormen and stream staff during games and figure it out quickly. They might not find proof but they'll figure it out. If they dont get shut down they will jump to crucify everyone involved. It seems like the only move for them after all this press. ****ing awesome job internet detectives!
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:16 PM   #3477
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvprof View Post
ppoker is same as pokermaster. Its essnetially a play money app that people join private clubs and play for real money. They use an agent to square up either in person with cash or btc or some other payment. Good chance with him being an agent he was taking money in from players and was losing that money and now needs to win money quick so needs to cheat. Ive heard of multiple agents who have stiffed players for huge numbers. So now imagine your agent has sports betting problem hes basically running a ponzi scheme with payouts and starts to get furthur behind as less people are depositing and needs to cheat to stay afloat. I actually cant believe noones thought of this yet. Joey this is it this has to be whats going on. We need to find people who use him as an agent and find out if he was slowpaying out and when it started.
think i mentioned possible racking up debts and maybe him being the graphics guy's agent on the app.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:17 PM   #3478
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by lvprof View Post
I would like to think she didn't have ill intent but def should have told them. But also maybe after everyone including her boss said no cheating is happening she thought maybe she was wrong. We are saying this with the fact we all know hes cheating because most of us watched hours and hours of the best selected hands. She was suspect on the QJ fold vs QT nut straight on turn that isnt even a top 20 hand ive seen, may not even be a top 50 hand. So maybe she didn't she just wasn't positive enough and was afraid of ruining an innocent persons reputation.
I don't think that one is anywhere close to the top 50 by itself it's almost reasonable.

I occasionally watched the stream and saw a hand very similar to the Moneymaker double AK vs 54o one where his opponents had AQ/AK and he had a very trash live hand and cold called a hefty 3bet/4bet with. I thought it was very "strange" and told even told one of my friends there was a good chance he was cheating after I heard he won most of his sessions. But, going from there to actually being able to act on it is much different.

That's the issue any one hand by itself isn't really that damning but when you collectively put it together in the right way it's pretty obvious to someone with a fair amount of poker knowledge. The problem is beyond a forum like this most people don't really get that.

So the probability anything happens to him really is probably fairly low. I think we should focus more on making sure something like this never happens again.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:18 PM   #3479
MaxPoker111
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

is mike postle in the 500z ignition pool?

IPoker, $2.50/$5 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $513.38 (102.7 bb)
BB: $1,069.13 (213.8 bb)
UTG: $512.50 (102.5 bb)
MP: $1,003.50 (200.7 bb)
CO: $536.02 (107.2 bb)
BTN: $538.54 (107.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qh Kc
2 folds, CO raises to $15, BTN folds, Hero raises to $60, BB folds, CO calls $45

Flop: ($125) 7c Ad 5s (2 players)
Hero bets $40, CO calls $40

Turn: ($205) Jc (2 players)
Hero bets $68, CO calls $68

River: ($341) 2h (2 players)
Hero bets $345.38 and is all-in, CO calls $345.38

Results: $1,031.76 pot ($4 rake)
Final Board: 7c Ad 5s Jc 2h
Hero mucked Qh Kc and lost (-$513.38 net)
CO showed 4c 5c and won $1,027.76 ($514.38 net)
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:18 PM   #3480
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Grind On My Mind View Post
So sick I havent seen others post this video From Aug 22nd 2018
I watched the hand and found myself thinking after AhQh bet out the flop (though lollivepoker @ $175 CB into $710 flop) that it wouldn't be ALL that weird (pre-flop not withstanding) for Postle to jam after AJo "inevitably" mucked...then AJo damn-near min-raises, leaving himself only $350 behind. No way any player w/ bottom pair puts another penny into the pot there. None. JFC.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:19 PM   #3481
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I don't believe this has been shared in the thread:

I reached out to a high stakes player who plays in Reno and recieved confirmation that Mike Postle has never played in any mid-to-high stakes games there (5/10 and higher). Which he referenced in the texts Veronica shared.

I can provide additional details via DM if necessary.

Last edited by monikrazy; 10-04-2019 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:22 PM   #3482
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by bigdave2304 View Post
And stones is going to watch the floormen and stream staff during games and figure it out quickly. They might not find proof but they'll figure it out. If they dont get shut down they will jump to crucify everyone involved. It seems like the only move for them after all this press. ****ing awesome job internet detectives!
Unless they have a vested interest in certain parties not getting in trouble. This is one reason hiring their own attorney to do the 3rd party investigation is so lol
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:24 PM   #3483
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by lvprof View Post
Watching berkeys steam they brought up a good point. They didn't want the stream to get big because more eyes would be watching and they could get caught. I think more people had to be questioning everything behind the scenes than just veronica. I assume the guy operating the camera doesn't know poker so the commentary people would be most likely to catch everything. The dealers are never dealing long enough to question things and they can't see the hole cards either and 0 chance they'd care to watch the stream later.

Also lets talk about how unprofessional the pokerroom in general. Lets go with the assumption noone thinks cheating is going on. How absolutely absurd are those memes. They are practically making a mockery of the people losing. It just feels gross even if no cheating is going on. I feel like if this happened in any other poker room he would have never gotten away with it with how much he was flaunting it.
There's been chatter about possible cheating for the last 6 months among dealers and others at Stones. JFK has total control of IT, Tournaments, and the Live Stream. You can draw your own conclusions from there...
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:27 PM   #3484
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Unless they have a vested interest in certain parties not getting in trouble. This is one reason hiring their own attorney to do the 3rd party investigation is so lol
No question. My guess is Lipman's staff will hold the carpet up while he selects what to sweep under it.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:27 PM   #3485
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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And that would create doubt and or confusion in at least one juror leading to an acquittal.

It takes some people hundreds of hours to grasp simple stuff like EV and they want to learn. A jury will be confused or lost and that is going to seed a whole bunch of doubt. Without someone flipping and showing solid tangible evidence, this is a tough case to get a conviction.
I understand. Do you think that the evidence of the hands themselves, cumulatively, is proof of cheating beyond a reasonable doubt(this is what I really want to know, what is your judgement?), but that it would never win a conviction due to the realities of a typical jury, that they don't have the expertise to appreciate the evidence and still wouldn't after long explanation and so forth?
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:35 PM   #3486
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by zica View Post
I understand. Do you think that the evidence of the hands themselves, cumulatively, is proof of cheating beyond a reasonable doubt(this is what I really want to know, what is your judgement?), but that it would never win a conviction due to the realities of a typical jury, that they don't have the expertise to appreciate the evidence and still wouldn't after long explanation and so forth?
We play poker, most intermediate level players and up can see the anomalies and no logic or legal reason for them. The defense attorney will interview jurors, along with the prosecution. They will surely look for someone that appears to be confused, a simple type, etc.... They put 3 on the jury and the odds of doubt go up big time. Burden of proof is a big deal and helps to protect the innocent.

It's not a case of the defendant was seen a block from the crime by three people testifying it was around the time of the crime and a knife, albeit commonplace, matches others he has at home. Most jurors can comprehend that circumstance. Winrates, river bluffs always right, BB/he. etc... might as well be speaking Sumerian to some. Tough stuff and a good defense attorney will bring expert witnesses to state it was possible. Very specialized data and circumstances, some legal eagles ITT with far more knowledge than I have could explain it better.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:36 PM   #3487
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zica View Post
I understand. Do you think that the evidence of the hands themselves, cumulatively, is proof of cheating beyond a reasonable doubt(this is what I really want to know, what is your judgement?), but that it would never win a conviction due to the realities of a typical jury, that they don't have the expertise to appreciate the evidence and still wouldn't after long explanation and so forth?
I know you asked him but i have thought a lot about this. I think if they brought in some heavy hitters any jury would agree. They need statisticians and at least one big name in poker. I think we all respect doug and joey more than hellmuth or negreanu but the public would believe them more. My grandmother knows who they are. Also if the jury hadn't heard them by name before just hearing their bio they'd be impressed. Remember the average person still thinks an online pro is someone who can't cut it live and this is cheating live after all.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:37 PM   #3488
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by bigdave2304 View Post
100 percent at least one person in this scheme is a massive degen or an opiate addict
I played craps with Postle, he played like a nit. I could see him having a drug habit though.

Actually I think I do remember him bitching about some sports bet he was losing on, so it could be that.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:37 PM   #3489
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Grind On My Mind View Post
So sick I havent seen others post this video From Aug 22nd 2018
Obviously easy to say now as certain points seem to be more and more clear, but that moving his right hand down to his lap (perhaps just a weird stretch) at 40:36 is also so suspicious. Different from the tucked left arm we've grown accustomed to in later streams but likely a phone position adjustment before the fake hole card glance.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:39 PM   #3490
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmaotsetung View Post
There's been chatter about possible cheating for the last 6 months among dealers and others at Stones. JFK has total control of IT, Tournaments, and the Live Stream. You can draw your own conclusions from there...
True. I was wondering why Postle favours seat 2, and then you realise that with Kuraitis managing the filming, seat 2 has his back to the camera most of the time, which covers up most of his actions.

Plus Kuraitis was in charge of the (non) investigation and the Stones twitter account, and media.

And doing the interview with Postle to give him a platform to defend himself from the suspicions.

There are so many fascinating quirks about this case. I love the spot where Veronica is very sarcastically saying how weird Postles play is in the Marle session, saying it is almost as though he can see the cards. And the show suddenly cuts short shortly after. But she had aired her doubts to Kuraitis earlier, so it is fascinating they took the risk of letting her commentate again on Postle, as watching him cheat yet again was the final straw for her, and she went public with her doubts.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:43 PM   #3491
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by locoo20 View Post
Anyone that has played poker seriously should believe this is 100% cheating. It's just a matter of knowing who else is responsible besides Mike. Also, this makes me wonder how many good cheaters may be out there, that we will never know of because they just hide it better.

Like, we know superuser accounts like potripper because he was stupid enough to win too much, but were there or are there superuser accounts that win just enough so we will never suspect?
Well the proven cheat Phil Ivey won $20m on the site he owned, while losing on other sites, so yes, there are other superusers.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:47 PM   #3492
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
They aren't some of the stupidest people on the planet. Why does this narrative keep creeping into this thread? This is greed, not stupidity.
As has been pointed out, to be this greedy to the point of making it so obvious was incredibly stupid. Its clear they have no real idea about poker strategy and thought they could just pass off blatant super using as lol soul reading god. Both dumb as rocks and anyone who doesn't realize that is even dumber than they are.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:47 PM   #3493
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by zica View Post
I understand. Do you think that the evidence of the hands themselves, cumulatively, is proof of cheating beyond a reasonable doubt(this is what I really want to know, what is your judgement?), but that it would never win a conviction due to the realities of a typical jury, that they don't have the expertise to appreciate the evidence and still wouldn't after long explanation and so forth?
imo, it would be extremely hard to get a conviction in a criminal case. theres just too many factors such as ppl not caring, flying under the radar, corruption etc. that said, i think a civil case has a good shot. We aren't trying to prove perfect play, bc he isn't actually playing perfectly. We are trying to prove that he is playing a purely exploitative style with absolute perfect information, which is easier to prove than one might think. You wouldn't have to understand all the nuances of poker. Mb one could start off with a simple toy game of high card where there is only one round of betting and he would fold a K whenever his opponent had an Ace but would raise when he had a K and his opponent had a Q. When he had a 3 and his opponent had a 2, he would just call to induce a bluff and call the raise, always acting perfectly in ever scenario. Couple that with him deep throating his crotch and bulgegate and you'd have a pretty good opening case against him.

i would also get an expert witness who was a statistician/poker play such as Bill Chen or Liv Boeree to testify as they would be able to both understand poker, the statistics as well as how to convey it to the laymen since they are both at one point college professors
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:47 PM   #3494
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Wow

The commentator say Mike went in the back to watch this hand w/ Taylor. Then say that was stupid the players don't go back there !!!

WTFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/Gaek0o6eYTo?t=8423
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:48 PM   #3495
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by lvprof View Post
I know you asked him but i have thought a lot about this. I think if they brought in some heavy hitters any jury would agree. They need statisticians and at least one big name in poker. I think we all respect doug and joey more than hellmuth or negreanu but the public would believe them more. My grandmother knows who they are. Also if the jury hadn't heard them by name before just hearing their bio they'd be impressed. Remember the average person still thinks an online pro is someone who can't cut it live and this is cheating live after all.
The problem with continually focusing on the math/stats is that the math/stats/poker experts only prove that MP's winrate is virtually impossible. Proving someone cheated (in court) requires a bit more. There is a big difference (in a criminal trial) between "he cheated and here is the equipment we confiscated used in the crime" and "his winrate is mathematically virtually impossible therefore he must be cheating." The equipment used shows how he cheated. The math/stats only proves his winrate is virtually impossible. Also, I'm sure you can get a stats expert to say MP's winrate is virtually impossible. Unfortunately, when that same expert is faced with the questions "did MP cheat? And how did he cheat?": I suspect no stats expert would be willing to answer definitely on those questions. Using DNA as an example; DNA can place a suspect at the scene of a stabbing, but you still need to prove the suspect did the actual stabbing.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:48 PM   #3496
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by TomHimself View Post
he could be doing secret RFID readers and still have JFK in on it.

he most likely developed a mix strategy or a backup variety.
Blah blah balance cheating range
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:48 PM   #3497
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
And that would create doubt and or confusion in at least one juror leading to an acquittal.

It takes some people hundreds of hours to grasp simple stuff like EV and they want to learn. A jury will be confused or lost and that is going to seed a whole bunch of doubt. Without someone flipping and showing solid tangible evidence, this is a tough case to get a conviction.
Yeah, teaching the jury poker is not going to be allowed by a judge. You're not getting dozens or hundreds of hours to teach a jury strategy.
The best thing to do would be to have as many people cheated testify as possible.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:49 PM   #3498
lvprof
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Anyone know if Veronica has been hired anyone else yet? I feel like any pokerroom would want her given that she saw it and spoke up and stuck to her guns. I hope they rehire her and give her justins job and a fat bonus.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:49 PM   #3499
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
We play poker, most intermediate level players and up can see the anomalies and no logic or legal reason for them. The defense attorney will interview jurors, along with the prosecution. They will surely look for someone that appears to be confused, a simple type, etc.... They put 3 on the jury and the odds of doubt go up big time. Burden of proof is a big deal and helps to protect the innocent.

It's not a case of the defendant was seen a block from the crime by three people testifying it was around the time of the crime and a knife, albeit commonplace, matches others he has at home. Most jurors can comprehend that circumstance. Winrates, river bluffs always right, BB/he. etc... might as well be speaking Sumerian to some. Tough stuff and a good defense attorney will bring expert witnesses to state it was possible. Very specialized data and circumstances, some legal eagles ITT with far more knowledge than I have could explain it better.
Maybe a jury wouldn't understand winrates and stats but I wonder if they would understand hours and hours of video of Postle cheating while they are looking at video specifically looking for cheating. All the phone checking and hat touching has to look odd even to people unfamiliar with poker.

Although I guess if you get a couple of Mike Matusows on the jury that could sink any case.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:49 PM   #3500
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind On My Mind View Post
So sick I havent seen others post this video From Aug 22nd 2018
I referenced it yesterday in this post, but I think you had gotten to it before I did. If anyone can find any evidence of super-using in his 2018 appearances below, prior to Aug 22 2018 (appears to be the earliest we have found so far), please advise.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=2348
Quote:
Originally Posted by momentaryblip View Post
OK first time chiming in here.

I've gone thru 2018 in chronological order in the Stones YT page. Appears to me from skimming every episode he appeared on in 2018, that he first starts super using on the August 22nd 2018 ($5/$5 No Limit Hold'em with Brent and Scott) episode.

All of the previous 12 episodes (appears his first 2018 appearance is Feb 21) that he is in before the Aug 22 2018 episode, I didn't see any super-using evidence, the phone (and keys) are often out on full display during hands/action, hands seem played reasonably, he's actually decent. Does run well often, but nothing overtly suspicious.

Then on the August 22nd 2018 episode, I see definite weirdness, a very weird play where he goes nuts with T2s, very obviously looks down in his lap before making a questionable/suspicious play, phone is nowhere to be seen, etc.

Here are the twelve links to the 12 appearance in 2018 that looked fine to me, then the link to where I think is the first stream that he super uses (August 22nd 2018 ($5/$5 No Limit Hold'em with Brent and Scott):

================================================== =====
** 12 appearances in 2018 that seem fine / normal / non-superusing (TBF I skimmed thru hands pretty quickly looking for absence of phone on table, obvious crotch glances, or suspicious hand situations/plays, so it's possible I missed something before August 22nd episode)**

Feb 21, 2018 Veronica & Friends! $1/$3 NLHE with Special Guest Jonathan Little: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBdP260MCuQ
Apr 19, 2018 $5/$5 No Limit Holdem with Special Guest Andrew Neeme and Brent Harrington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7HTpCRJplE
May 23, 2018 $5/$5 No Limit Holdem with Justin Kelly and Chris Glasgow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVv8BATZmqI
Jun 22, 2018 $5/$5/$10 No Limit Hold'ed with Special Guest Chris Moneymaker, Hosted by Kasey and Justin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RTNjRxcvIc
Jul 18, 2018 Veronica & Friends! $1/$3 No Limit Hold'em with Justin Kelly and Kasey Mills: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAw9HiSpG9w
Jul 27, 2018 Veronica & Friends Replay w/ Live commentary, with Tom and Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvE09nhHLJk
Jul 30, 2018 $1 on the Button / $2 / $3 No Limit Hold'em with Scott and Kasey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWPHGvuqDg
Aug 1, 2018 $5/$5 No Limit Hold'em with Brent and Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eYbMfvswe4
Aug 3, 2018 $5/$5/$10 No Limit Hold'em with Train and Kasey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu4n0Sis8Fg
Aug 6, 2018 $1/$3 No Limit Hold'em with Train and Brent: https://youtu.be/ZKa83uP7m_Q?t=2352 (actually gets pwned pretty hard by Joel in this one)
Aug 10, 2018 Harlan and Victims - $5/$5/$10 No Limit Hod'em with JFK and the Mountain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vlmz8T86DQ
Aug 15, 2018 Veronica & Friends - $1/$3 No Limit Hold’em: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4KS_TixXx0
================================================== =====

and..... here's the Aug 22 2018 episode where things start to get weird, phone out of sight etc, and first time I see the quick crotch-gazes disguised as looking at cards, immediately preceding a pretty suicidal (cold 3-bet jam on flop) play with bottom pair against two opponents that you can only make if you are certain they both have broadway hands that whiffed on the 8 high flop..., especially considering the 2-bettor was fairly committed with the 2 bet sizing and his fairly shallow stack depth (meaning you can only jam on him if you are certain it's a bluff/opponent has nothing, but it's still crazy because of the stack to pot ratio, and the fact that Mike has yet to commit any post-flop bets before his suicide play). Anyway so here you go:

Aug 22, 2018 $5/$5 No Limit Hold'em with Brent and Scott: https://youtu.be/oOxc4qbQiLo?t=2287
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