The value of rebuying comes from someone else not rebuying. Otherwise, it has no value.

Joe, there are two sides of the equation - income minus expenses = profit.

Yes, the person who rebuys multiple times will earn a higher income on average, but he will also incur higher expenses through buy ins. The player who does not rebuy minimizes his costs and his potential earnings.

Matusow's point was that rebuys help the good players, since they earn a greater return on their buy-ins through skillful play. And inherently, the better players will be more willing to make multiple rebuys since they will have more money to invest in poker tournaments. So it will be harder for an amateur player to succeed in a rebuy event.

But there's no inherent advantage to rebuying. If you are -EV in the tournament, rebuying will cost you money, if you are +EV in the tournament it will earn you money. The ability to rebuy does not affect your EV in any way.

Very succinctly put - let's see if that gets through.

looks fine to me. It repeats what's already been said. Nothing new or disputed there...

But I do have a question about that equation income minus expenses = profit.

lkasigh..
Do you think that equation can be applied to buying lottery tickets?

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edit: I see something I can argue with "...If you are -EV in the tournament, rebuying will cost you money,.....etc <-- That is conjecture on your part. Luck is such a huge factor in tournaments that it is very unlikely to hold true.

While I've only played in small live tournaments $35-$115 buy ins, I've cashed in about 25% of the tournaments I've played in since 2004, with wins and chops, only a handful were for min cashes. If a small stakes fish like me can do it, then so can the pros.

But the pros cannot do it. Follow the link in post #166 above. Look at that chart.
Count the entries and divide by the cashes. The ratio is roughly 6 entries per cash.

Many of the pros cashed in 20%+. It doesn't matter, running deep is where the money is in tournaments(no brainer there).

Those tournaments tracked were big games against many skilled opponents, the fact that that list had a positive ROI goes to show there is money to be made in tournament poker if you have skills.

But they haven't paid expenses yet..travel, food, taxes etc. Once they do, they might break even if they are lucky. WSOP Vegas is one of the least expensive since many live there, but the circuit is extremely costly.

...and this is the cream of the crop.. the best in the world.

They are doing it for the same reason we do: Tournaments offer a chance to score that big bink, become better known, get some fame and fortune (or add to it).

They play cash games to make their livings. The few top super stars have investments, sponsors, and so forth and may be independently wealthy, but most play cash for income. And most are backed, and have to share the wins.

And they sell action to play these tournaments, or are sponsored. I doubt many backers are funding tournament play. It's really bad odds. Backers are in it for the money.

To say there is no money to be made in tournaments simply isn't true.

I know online I am a winning tournament player and a loosing cash player, overall I am still ahead. My cash game has become much stronger but today the competition even in the microstakes is tough and every mistake I make is amplified, every bad beat hurts.

Somehow I still can get ahead in tournaments, I don't know how. I'm just able to adjust my playing style to the table dynamics, if I have a LAG to my left then I know I have to play super tight and hope I can trap the LAG, if I have tight player to my left then I get aggressive and steal every chance I get. If a LAG is on my right then I just need to hit a flop and I'll probably double up or win a nice pot.

The last live game I played I was short stacked from the middle to end and played super tight because everyone was knocking each other out. I essentially folded my way to a decent cash, it wasn't a fun style but cashing for $270 in a $50 buy in is a solid cash for me(net profit around $200 because I bough some food and drinks at the poker room).

If I had a backer or the bankroll I am confident that after 100 or so WSOP or WPT tournaments I'd be ahead of the game.

Is the mouth always twitching like he just did a rail?

jrod,
Cash requires much skill. Luck is an insignificant factor. You are not supposed to beat a cash game. If I were you I wouldn't even play cash, or would pick very soft games.

Tournaments are the opposite. Luck is a huge factor, so much so that you are on a virtually equal footing with the best players. A minimum of natural talent or a bit of poker know-how is all anyone needs. You are supposed to win your share of tournaments.

All is right with the world.

MY GOD,
How did this become a discussion about the pros and cons of rebuys?
The MAIN problem Mike is talking about is NOT the Re Entry (Which I have to remind you again is a bit different than a "rebuy" tourney), the PROBLEM is the possibility of CHIP Smuggling.
One person could actually pay several people to slowly hide some big chips off their stack and collect them at the end of the day. ( i.e. if 10 people each sold a couple of 5k chips, with a starting stack of 30k, it prob. wouldn't affect their stack too badly at the end of the day, even if they are still in, but the buyer would have a nice advantage with an extra 100k to add to his stack when he could.
This is the problem that needs a solution.
Different chips would help on different days, but with several hours of reentries allowed per day, smuggling could be done on the same day.
there must be a way to prevent this.

It's unlikely to happen. We know it has happened because it's a dumb thing to do and they got caught.

Conspiracies are rare because people cannot keep their traps shut. Petty criminals are probably the stupidest and are bound to screw up and get caught... and then fink to save themselves. 10 people getting away with it seems a bit fantastic.

Can't remember where I saw or heard this (probably here) but I recall where someone dumped off to another player who agreed to pay him. He didn't pay up or there was a disagreement of some kind. They argued and were overheard. It was not a rebuy / re-entry.

im getting physically ill read joeschmoe's posts. the government should torture prisoners at gitmo by forcing them to listen to a narration of his posts on loop

i feel honored to be mentioned in one of your 40.29 posts per day. You are ill but it ain't physical and it ain't my fault.

ETP Barcelona high roller is streaming on stars.tv

ept barcelona hr is €50k, yeah? ivey can buy 500 people into the tourney and they can all shove 72o into errybodys aces = GUARANTEED PROFIT. not fair to all the plebians taking a shat at a HSMTT who can't afford to be staking people, ya dig?

Luck is always a factor in any poker game. My last live cash game I played, the other guy hit his 4 outer and I was scratching my head why someone would call my 4x re-raise his C-Bet with only a gut shot, he hit top pair on the turn, I shoved with my set then he hits...the same guy who was giving signals to his buddy and every hand I played at least one of them was in the hand with me...needless to say I was over it. I feel like the two closest poker rooms to me, Melbourne, Fl and Daytona the cash games are full of collusion. I've had some good cashes in live games and did well when I went to Vegas, but thats easy when there are 100s of tables and plenty of fishies sitting at the poker tables sucking down the free booze.

Luck is a bigger factor in tournaments, that falls in the no **** category when only 10-15% of the field gets paid. It takes more than poker 101 to consistently win in tournaments. Anyone with basic poker knowledge can get lucky and win, but it takes a little extra to get ahead. Playing poker 101 will probably leave you getting blinded out 90% of the time.

In my opinion Re-buys are good for tournaments because they make the prize pool bigger. I have no problem with a wealthy business man who plays ABC poker buying in 10 times.

Sure, luck is always a factor but it evens out over time, and you are as lucky as anyone else.

Suppose you don't give luck enough time to even out. A tournament is like that. Certain people are going to be really lucky on that particular day, while others will be unlucky. Luck's influence is greatly magnified in a tournament.

Cash is not like that, where the same group of people plays over and over, perhaps every day. Luck does even out, and skills like "Know your opponents" separate the winners from the losers.

Barcelona SH Roller is at 9 players. 7 get paid.

I love it when you completely flip and start defending the other side of your argument by accident. Pure gold.

Translation:
"I hate it when something makes perfect sense but challenges my view of reality."

No. lol.

Good try. That had nothing to do with what I said, but good try.

My original point is that you're so oblivious that you actually switch sides in the middle of a debate, yet you expect people to think you're intelligent. COME ON BRO

and you won't point it out any time soon because you get your rocks off slowrolling people...?

MM comes off well and I agree with what he said.

This thread proves poker is not dead, wow, logic fails all over the place.

wut