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Old 07-20-2008, 10:41 PM   #126
amulet
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer

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Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
As someone else said he's a stickler for the rules only when it suits him. He has a long history of this. (For example his absurd attempt to get his 10k buyin refunded at least year's WSOP over some ruling that might have been incorrect... after they failed to kill a hand and he subsequently lost the pot.)
The WSOP request was absurd, but it is important to realize that Singer was completely correct. Again, it was foolish and made him look bad, but he was not wrong. He wanted the rules enforced consistently not arbitrarily. He had had a hand killed for the same things, as others hard, including me. Once he asked the dealer to enforce the rule his opponent knew he was beating Singer. I wouldn't have taken the same course of action as Singer did, but I think he was clearly right.

I think his history is one of following the rules and wanting them followed. I think he is overzealous and sometimes annoying in the way he goes about wanting the rules followed. However, people like him are good for the integrity of the game.

I think Madusow's trash talking is bad for the game.

However, clearly here at 2+2 I am in the minority about my opinions of both players.

I have no idea what happened in the HORSE game. I have played with both of them watched both of them on tv, and prefer the way Singer acts and treats others and the game itself.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:12 PM   #127
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer

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The WSOP request was absurd, but it is important to realize that Singer was completely correct. Again, it was foolish and made him look bad, but he was not wrong. He wanted the rules enforced consistently not arbitrarily. He had had a hand killed for the same things, as others hard, including me. Once he asked the dealer to enforce the rule his opponent knew he was beating Singer. I wouldn't have taken the same course of action as Singer did, but I think he was clearly right.

I think his history is one of following the rules and wanting them followed. I think he is overzealous and sometimes annoying in the way he goes about wanting the rules followed. However, people like him are good for the integrity of the game.

I think Madusow's trash talking is bad for the game.

However, clearly here at 2+2 I am in the minority about my opinions of both players.

I have no idea what happened in the HORSE game. I have played with both of them watched both of them on tv, and prefer the way Singer acts and treats others and the game itself.

It doesn't matter if the original ruling was incorrect. Trying to get a refund, after you lose the preflop all-in that the incorrect ruling allowed to happen is so obviously and utterly wrong.

In any kind of rule system you take your appeal to the highest authority available, and if you lose you are stuck with the result. You don't get to wait to see if the ruling ultimately hurts you, and THEN somehow opt out of the whole contest.

It seemed incredibly whiney and self-centered to me. And keep in mind the bad ruling here was failing to kill a hand on a technicality, not something substantive.

I have several more examples of this kind of stuff. Maybe the best one is simply that he once berated a different player in the HORSE game for doing the exact same thing he does himself. (Tommboy83 was sitting out stud hi and razz I believe.)

I have played with him a little live and more online. Imo the guy just takes a courtroom approach to poker... use the rules to your advantage in any possible way you can.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:16 PM   #128
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

I try not to pass judgment on people I don't know, but David Singer seems like a complete tool. Loud, rude and obnoxious I can handle, but slimy tantrum-throwing rules nits are the worst.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:40 PM   #129
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by pete fabrizio View Post
I try not to pass judgment on people I don't know, but David Singer seems like a complete tool. Loud, rude and obnoxious I can handle, but slimy tantrum-throwing rules nits are the worst.
I think you are way off. When I have been at the table with him he has treated everyone well and been very considerate of others.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:55 PM   #130
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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On a separate note, not great to advocate violence in a post . I love how the internet allows people to writing things that they would be terrified to say in public, and that should not be written here.
LOL at advocating violence! "Needs a c--k punching" is a way of saying "needs their ego deflated". We all need to be taken down a notch from time to time.

Lost in translations. Sigh.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:03 AM   #131
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

I wonder what how wil say about this haha
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:06 AM   #132
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

Theres already HOE and HOSE why not just make ROSE simple solution.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:12 AM   #133
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer

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Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
It doesn't matter if the original ruling was incorrect. Trying to get a refund, after you lose the preflop all-in that the incorrect ruling allowed to happen is so obviously and utterly wrong.

In any kind of rule system you take your appeal to the highest authority available, and if you lose you are stuck with the result. You don't get to wait to see if the ruling ultimately hurts you, and THEN somehow opt out of the whole contest.

It seemed incredibly whiney and self-centered to me. And keep in mind the bad ruling here was failing to kill a hand on a technicality, not something substantive.

I have several more examples of this kind of stuff. Maybe the best one is simply that he once berated a different player in the HORSE game for doing the exact same thing he does himself. (Tommboy83 was sitting out stud hi and razz I believe.)

I have played with him a little live and more online. Imo the guy just takes a courtroom approach to poker... use the rules to your advantage in any possible way you can.
Actually, the first thing David wanted was to get put in one of the next two Day 1's, which was way way way beyond any scope of realistic hope, but seemed to be in the strategy of asking for the moon in order to make what you really want seem more reasonable. He even talked about going to the NGC with his complaints. Don't know if that ever actually happened.

Interviewing David last year and talking with Steve Frezer, it seemed like David got a raw deal, but yes, he doth protested a bit too much.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:56 AM   #134
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

What exactly happened with Singer at WSOP?
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:03 AM   #135
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer

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Originally Posted by Watchmaker View Post
I could make an anti-semitic comment/joke here, but I won't.
( ) Classy.

I guess when we talk about a lowlife degenerates like Duch "Pokerspot" Boyd or Russ 400lbs O' silver Hamilton we should decry the behavior of Americas anglo-saxon protestants as well right?

See you tommorow at the Venetian dropping dollars an hour into Sheldon Adelson's pockets or at the Wynn shoving dollars at another Jew or maybe playing online at Partypoker like 70K other monkeys. Or you could boycott those places and just watch the WPT....oh, oh wait a minute Lyle Berman is the most Jewish thing to come out of Minnesota since Dylan's nose.

2% of the population and 50% of Bobby's room.......I can see where the hate comes from.

(x) Sweet revenge.

That rant doesnt make what Singer is doing right....but the irony of this dudes post is it was a openly Jewish guy(wears a chai on his necklace) who was the oonly player to sack up and confront him over it....I think IF he is systematically doing this it is CERTAINLY unethical and bad PR for FTP. OTOH if he is periodically taking breaks(legitimat ones to eat/make calls/handle business) and like all of us does so with some strategic considerations its hard to know how to handle it.

Last edited by zaxx19; 07-21-2008 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:03 AM   #136
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

Live games are not the same as online games.

Hardly anyone would join a live H.O.R.S.E game in a B&M casino and then sit out during his weaker games. It would be awkward, the other players would be annoyed, and he would eventually be asked to leave. For these reasons, the problem did not arise.

Online no one sees the other players. No one has to feel embarrassed. So now there is a problem with players sitting out. This is a totally new problem, because online mixed cash games are very new.

A solution is needed. And this solution cannot be asking the players to "please follow the spirit of the game". The solution must be to improve the rules.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:07 AM   #137
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

mike is the best: listen to him talking about the patriots..."i'm betting my whole net worth on them"

thoughts on that amount

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMjsD...eature=related
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:09 AM   #138
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

Quote:
What exactly happened with Singer at WSOP?
Long story short: WSOP informs everyone that the use of a cell phone during a hand is prohibited and will result in your hand being killed.

Singer's in a hand and check-raises a guy all in. Guy is trying to decide whether or not to call, his cell phone rings. He takes it out of his pocket, looks at it, turns off the ring, puts it back in his pocket.

Singer motions to dealer, "You going to do anything?"

After thinking a bit longer, guy's cell phone rings *again*, he does the same thing. Singer calls on the floor to have his hand killed, they say that what the guy did doesn't constitute as "using" your phone. Through all of this, makes it a bit obvious David doesn't want to be called (and David says as much), guy calls with a semi-strong hand against David's low pair and a flush draw. River bricks, David GHN.

The basic argument was that it had basically been said that even touching your cell phone could result in having your hand killed - it was frequently seen throughout the WSOP last year that if you were looking at your cell phone or texting when a hand was dealt, your hand would be killed immediately. So the argument was whether this ruling was consistent with the rest of the series.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:19 AM   #139
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer

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Originally Posted by zaxx19 View Post
( ) Classy.

I guess when we talk about a lowlife degenerates like Duch "Pokerspot" Boyd or Russ 400lbs O' silver Hamilton we should decry the behavior of Americas anglo-saxon protestants as well right?

See you tommorow at the Venetian dropping dollars an hour into Sheldon Adelson's pockets or at the Wynn shoving dollars at another Jew or maybe playing online at Partypoker like 70K other monkeys. Or you could boycott those places and just watch the WPT....oh, oh wait a minute Lyle Berman is the most Jewish thing to come out of Minnesota since Dylan's nose.

2% of the population and 50% of Bobby's room.......I can see where the hate comes from.

(x) Sweet revenge.

That rant doesnt make what Singer is doing right....but the irony of this dudes post is it was a openly Jewish guy(wears a chai on his necklace) who was the oonly player to sack up and confront him over it....I think IF he is systematically doing this it is CERTAINLY unethical and bad PR for FTP. OTOH if he is periodically taking breaks(legitimat ones to eat/make calls/handle business) and like all of us does so with some strategic considerations its hard to know how to handle it.
LOL.
Jewish anguish and hypersensitivity.
Lighten up, Morrie.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:30 AM   #140
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

I think it should be mentioned that Chau Giang plays HS H.O.R.S.E. and takes breaks all the time -- but the players know he's taking smoke breaks and have even said as much. This is an example of legitimately sitting out during hands (from what other players have said). There is a regular rotation of players at the HS games and they rarely sit out. So, it's pretty obvious when someone folds the 10th hand of one game and doesn't return until the 1st hand of the next game that they're engaging in unfair practice.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:32 AM   #141
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
A solution is needed. And this solution cannot be asking the players to "please follow the spirit of the game". The solution must be to improve the rules.
Right, because there will always be people like you and Singer who **** it up for everyone else.

As an aside: Just because what you're doing is not technically against the rules, does not mean you aren't a scumbag for doing it.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:05 AM   #142
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Right, because there will always be people like you and Singer who **** it up for everyone else.

As an aside: Just because what you're doing is not technically against the rules, does not mean you aren't a scumbag for doing it.
For what seems to be the 100th time - Singer was NOT doing it, Mikey was just steaming.

And I can't do it, because I play H.O.R.S.E tourneys, never cash.

And FWIW, I did not say that sitting out wasn't nasty. But cash game poker is always nasty. All I said was that sitting out is not angle shooting. There is no tricking anybody. Everyone sees what is going on. An angle is something that you do not want the others to find out.

Don't get me wrong; I understand what you want. You want this game to work just as well as it does in tourneys and in B&M casinos. But what you can't do is blame the players if it does not work. You have to blame the rules.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:13 AM   #143
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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For what seems to be the 100th time - Singer was NOT doing it, Mikey was just steaming.
I don't know where you get this; plenty of people in this thread have said they've seen Singer do it, and it wasn't just Matusow accusing him.
Quote:
And FWIW, I did not say that sitting out wasn't nasty. But cash game poker is always nasty. All I said was that sitting out is not angle shooting. Because it isn't. You are not tricking anybody. Everyone sees what you are doing.
'Forward motion' is considered an angle shoot, but everyone knows what you're doing. He's taking an angle/loophole and abusing it. Calling it angle shooting or calling it being a scumbag isn't the issue.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong; I understand what you want. You want this game to work just as well as it does in tourneys and in live casinos. But what you can't do is blame the players if it does not work. You have to blame the rules.
No, what Matusow wants, and what a lot of people want, is for David Singer to act like a professional. As a professional, he is held to a different standard, which is he shouldn't be doing anything that is scummy or going against the spirit of the game. He's sitting down in a HORSE game; not a game of RSE. If he wants there to be a mixed stud game, he should petition FullTilt to give it to him.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:37 AM   #144
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
For what seems to be the 100th time - Singer was NOT doing it, Mikey was just steaming.
Hoss_TBF: seriously david, it's pretty lame
Hoss_TBF: sitting out all the flop games
Hoss_TBF: this is a mix game, if you angle it and
you're in red, we have no hope
Hoss_TBF: in recent memory you've played a lot of
stud and that's about it . . .


So I guess Hoss was also "steaming"?
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:08 AM   #145
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

fyi, FTPDoug has mentioned that this is not allowed

Quote:
19. Doug, people angle shoot the H.O.R.S.E games by sitting out there weakest game and then just sitting back in. Can you guys make it so if you sit out in H.O.R.S.E. that you can't sit back in until the same part of the rotation you sat out in?

- Support has the ability to prevent people from playing mixed ring games at all if they abuse them like that. Any time this happens you should email support and explain the situation. They'll issue a warning and then if it happens again that player will no longer be allowed to play mixed games.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=214682

Last edited by Keyser.; 07-21-2008 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:18 AM   #146
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
Don't get me wrong; I understand what you want. You want this game to work just as well as it does in tourneys and in B&M casinos. But what you can't do is blame the players if it does not work. You have to blame the rules.
Agreed. They need to fix the rules, as apparently this has been a problem with people just hopping in for one rotation. There's other slight angles that I'm sure a lot of people do. Like if they are playing a two hour session, they might hop in on their best game (especially if their worst game only has like 3-5 hands left), and end before their worst game starts. I can't really blame them, but over time that probably adds up. I bet if you looked up a lot of people's total hh record of horse, they would not be as even-sided as you'd think. Simply randomizing each hand would remove ALL angles and make it to be seemingly what the players want.
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:35 AM   #147
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by captZEEbo View Post
Agreed. They need to fix the rules, as apparently this has been a problem with people just hopping in for one rotation. There's other slight angles that I'm sure a lot of people do. Like if they are playing a two hour session, they might hop in on their best game (especially if their worst game only has like 3-5 hands left), and end before their worst game starts. I can't really blame them, but over time that probably adds up. I bet if you looked up a lot of people's total hh record of horse, they would not be as even-sided as you'd think. Simply randomizing each hand would remove ALL angles and make it to be seemingly what the players want.
How would the blinds work, then? Randomize where the button appears? Make it so that when it switches to a Stud game, the button freezes, and then moves again the next time a flop game is called?
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:55 AM   #148
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by JediMyndTrik View Post
How would the blinds work, then? Randomize where the button appears? Make it so that when it switches to a Stud game, the button freezes, and then moves again the next time a flop game is called?
There are probably more ways to do it then one, but I think it'd work if there's a button that rotates every hand. So sometimes you'll have to post the holdem big blind 3 times in a row on your "big blind", and sometimes it will be stud on your "big blind" and you then won't have to post. But since it's random, nobody will have an edge.
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:58 AM   #149
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonzy4 View Post
Hoss_TBF: seriously david, it's pretty lame
Hoss_TBF: sitting out all the flop games
Hoss_TBF: this is a mix game, if you angle it and
you're in red, we have no hope
Hoss_TBF: in recent memory you've played a lot of
stud and that's about it . . .


So I guess Hoss was also "steaming"?
Pathetic. So Mike and Hoss must be right because they are two, and David Singer must be wrong because he is only one person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranjuez View Post
David Singer: usually when i play, i play for hours and play
every game
. Sometimes, i have other things going on, and i
just sit in for a little while then leave and sometimes come back

David Singer: what is the big deal

David Singer: there is no angle

David Singer: u r wrong hoss, i usally play the bigger game and play all the games for hours

David Singer: tim, i think u r joking, but its not funny. Mike
was giving me a hard time, so I sat out of the 2-4 during the
stud to answer his nonesense. not i haven't started playing
again

David Singer: i can't help it if 'no it all' thought i hit and run
earlier, when i ddin't even win.
Mikey seems to be a great guy, but he does slander other players a lot. So sue me that I won't take his word for anything.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:03 AM   #150
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Re: Mike Matusow and David Singer HORSE chat

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Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
Pathetic. So Mike and Hoss must be right because they are two, and David Singer must be wrong because he is only one person?
Now you are just trolling. Why on earth would two players in the game call David Singer out if he indeed did no wrong?

Stop wasting peoples time with your posts here. I am sure there is some flat earth society forum that is more suited for your Bagdad Bob act.
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