Wow I have a hard time believing that but if it's true, those guys are d-bags as well. That's Elezra, Oppenheimer, and Chau, right? I have to say that I pretty much doubt it's true.

Bart,

i have tried to make it a habit on this forum to generally not post unless i feel like i can contribute something, but you are so out of line on this one that i really don't want new players to find this thread somehow and say "Well, Bart said it's okay to do it, i'll do it too!" I'm going to assume that you are in fact being serious with all the terrible things you've posted.



"H.O.R.S.E is a tournament format. Stop whining just because it does not work out in cash games"

are you trying to say that mixed games weren't played until tournaments came around? so, before 1970, any games played anywhere were one game, one game only? no.


"If no one can come up with a rule to avoid exploitation, then that is not Singer's fault. At the moment he is doing everything right."

i haven't read FTP's T&C, but i'm pretty sure FTPDoug said something is in the works to take care of the mixed games problems like this. also, FTP has already warned people against sitting out consistently in some games. if there was no problem, like you seem to believe, FTP would have followed their tradition of doing absolutely nothing until they get enough complaints. which they basically did here, except for now they finally did something.


"This is not sports, people. Fairplay in poker means not to insult others, no string bets, that sort of things. Deliberately playing your better games and avoiding your worse games is still fair. Change the rules or shut up."

most of this is true. this isn't sports, it's poker. it's self regulated by the players and the sites themselves, so for the most part, there isn't anything automatic. however, if no one pointed out problems in the system, the system would never be tweaked to make it work better. deliberately laying your better games may not be against any specific rule of the game yet but it still violates the spirit of the game and basic sportsmanship which is something no player should do in any game, let alone a paid representative of the site.


"If a player sits down at H.O.R.S.E and then plays only certain games instead of all five, everyone sees what he is doing. No tricking."

you're right, sitting out certain games isn't exactly angle shooting. however, assume 6 players that dont' know each other sit at the same table at the same time. now all the players are assuming that the others players are sitting to play mixed games. as soon as one person starts sitting out consistently, the whole thing gets a little dicey, and it turns into a situation no one wants. so while it's not literally angle shooting, it's not good for the game, which is the most important part of poker, not winning money like you and a lot of inexperienced players think. if the spirit of the game is violated, the games fall apart, the no one makes money.


while other people have in fact pointed out that live poker is different that online poker, it's still basically the same game. if a player sat down in a casino card room and got up and left during flop games, they most certainly wouldn't be allowed to play the game for long, except for in certain, extreme circumstances (i.e. a super whale). if a paid representative of the casino sat out during specific games, he absolutely would either not be playing in the game at all for very long, or he would not be a paid representative of the casino very long. if you seriously believe that mixed games have only come around since tournaments, you probably would not have lasted long in the old road games trying to pull this maneuver with the old school pros. they deal with crap like that a different way.

i talked to Matt about this and he said the reason why he (and i assume other players) have tolerated this as long has he has is because they are so bad at the games they do still play that they still want them in the game.

with Singer though, he knows he has a big edge in the Stud variations and he's likely a dog in the flop games (again i don't know, but it's easy to infer that based on the situation), so multiple players have complained because he is basically "angle shooting."

none of this should really matter though, based on the fact that Singer is a red pro. as soon as that's tossed into the whole equation, he should be doing nothing to make FTP look bad at all, no matter if his only purpose in the games is making money (which you assuming wrongly in most cases, it's probably true in David's).

the said thing about the whole mess is that people can even think it's okay in the first place. when someone said you're the kind of guy who would grim someone, they're probably right. but just remember, just because it's not specifically against the rules, doesn't make it right. you'll probably figure that out once you grow up though. (and no, that has nothing to do with how young or old you are)

Please don't speak if you don't know what you are talking about. Horse and Hose have been cash games for years. Singer would never be allowed to do this in a live high stakes cash game and shouldn't try to do it on-line.

You are wrong because you don't understand the social dynamics and judgment calls that govern the game. You seem like a guy who says "technically" a lot.

Do you understand the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law? Yes, by the absolute letter of the law, you can walk during games that you feel aren't your best. But that violates the spirit of the law, which is why a majority of players don't do it.

Funny thing about this is, it doesn't have a thing to do with the stakes, high or low, or wether it is in the rule book. This is common sense. Even in a friendly home game of what is normally referred to as "Dealers choice", it is expected that you play everyone's game wether you like it or not. I mean I was 5 yrs old saying...."Ooooo, I hate Kings, jacks, the man with the ax, High/Low split", but I was throwing my money in the pot at the same time.

If you guys have been following high stakes H.O.R.S.E. for the last few months, there's been a virtual drive-by of random players who only want to play one or two of the games. It happens constantly at FTP -- players nobody's ever seen before buy in huge, popping in to play two games and sit out three for four rounds then they split.

David's not the first person that Mike has called out for doing this. I would hope that everyone reading this should know that kind of crap is bad for this particular game. It defeats the purpose of being good at ALL the games in H.O.R.S.E.

Mike's completely correct for calling anyone out, particularly people who are supposed to represent the site, for choosing to angle these games.

The argument I've heard from players who do this is "Well, I can't get a high stakes Stud game going" or "I can't get a high stakes Razz game going" or whatever.

So, because you can't get a big dollar game, you're going to make everyone else play the games YOU have advantage and refuse to play the games THEY have advantage in? Sounds great for building your bankroll but probably not your credibility as a player.

Regarding this conversation between Mike & David though...

[x] standard

Some people need a good **** punching.

haha.

using that strategy in tourney, live or online, amongst entrants is one thing, where David Singer/Full Tilt is just like any other entrantrant putting up their money...but for someone coming to Full-Tilt's site to play a cash game against their pro, then having that pro sit out his weak game, well that's something else -- the risk in a tourney is your entry fee, but in a cash game, its open ended....and certainly does not fulfill the promise advertised to play against the top pros...it's a lot like playing blackjack and being shuffled up on when the count goes your way--its serious cheating

Id bet 15u that ur over 40. amirte?

Time is $ grandpa.

Madusow constantly goes after others to put them on tilt, and/or because of his own insecurities. Unless anyone here was watching we have no idea if Singer was sitting out consistently in any one game, or if it was random. Madusow goes nuts when he loses, or I should say more nuts.

If Madusow was serious and not trying to get Singer to tilt he knows how to bring it up to FT.

On a separate note, not great to advocate violence in a post . I love how the internet allows people to writing things that they would be terrified to say in public, and that should not be written here.

why is he so bad at typing though?

he types with his eblows

Chubby fingers+Trying to type 100+WPM on a laptop.

Might be an account shared by JC and Amnon Filippi, but you can clearly see Amnon playing on that account in one of his PRR Blogfessionals.
First few seconds.
http://www.pokerroad.com/blogfessional/jc&amnon/6/

this is a major problem that has been going on since the horse games started online. the biggest problem is when you have a player like hoss with such a great reputation at holdem and usually most of the players not wanting to play the game anyway, everyone sits out. so what happens is that i am playing a 6-8 handed game of horse and hu or 3 handed limit holdem vs hoss every round. it becomes more unfair to me or matusow (who never sits games) or a few others than to hoss even though he is matched up vs others best games because they are angling for an edge. i would also wager that great than 50% of the shorthanded horse games end after the stud8 round especially with hoss in the game, but that is far less of a problem than guys playing only the stud games.

Hey that bart guy is a really great poster.

What singer, if he is even doing what he is being accused of IIT is wrong, not cheating but definately wrong. If it becomes a serious problem i have no doubt that something will be done.

BRB gotta sit back in the horse game studs over

Bart,

Just so we're straight: your stance that it is okay to do whatever it takes to win money, so long as it's not against the rules, no matter how scummy it is? I mean, that's about what I gathered from your posts. If that's not your stance, please clarify.

That's what I gathered to, made me think he'd be a complete ******* and seemingly thinks nothing of etiquette.

I did not read all of the posts...but I think MM point is that as a "Red" pro on FTP they should be held to a higher standard..with that said..I agree with MM.....man, agreeing with MM makes you feel like your in a raft in the middle of the ocean..

QFT, GambleAB my fav poster poster, couldn't have said it better. What David is doing is unethical. He deserves to be called out, especially being a red pro.

David Singer confessed in an interview that his weakest game is limit holdem (he is good at NLH), he said he never understood the game.

I don't like it, but he is not the only one doing that, and Matusow is not a model in poker etiquette to criticize another player like that.

It is hard to prove that a player is sit out to avoid his weakest game or some opponents stronger games, and the software allows it.

If full tilt changed games in less hands it might be better for the game.

dude u have like no clue wats goin on here if singer is rly guilty for the claims made here mike isnt out of line

JC Tran and Matt Hawrilenko are publicly complaining about this. You can say what you want about Mike Matusow, but the other two are very reputable people in the poker world with no apparent agenda. I've noticed it twice as well. It was most obvious in a 2000/4000 game he played in at the starting of July against Oppenheim, Ivey, Hansen, and Benyamine.

It would be a hell of a coincidence.

As someone else said he's a stickler for the rules only when it suits him. He has a long history of this. (For example his absurd attempt to get his 10k buyin refunded at least year's WSOP over some ruling that might have been incorrect... after they failed to kill a hand and he subsequently lost the pot.)

I could make an anti-semitic comment/joke here, but I won't.

I'm almost positive the account's in JC Tran's name though. Once David Williams and Matusow were openly talking about a 10k dept one of them had with JC. Williams asked what JC's account was, and Matusow didn't know. Williams then told Matusow he would call and ask JC. He came back and wrote, "JC is no it all" and the 10k was transferred.

I don't think they'd be sending 10k to Amnon's account if it was owed to Tran.

Edit: Found a link. 4th post down. http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...1&fpart=7&vc=1