Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #201
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
.isolated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Team J.A.M.M.A.T. <3 Breh Breh :(
Posts: 14,565
Thumbs down Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
It is pretty clear that WPT would not allow this if it was televised, but ignores it when not televised.
What makes you think that's the case?!?!?!

.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 07:25 PM   #202
brandoncla
Pooh-Bah
 
brandoncla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Where the Rivahhhhs flow like wine
Posts: 5,172
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Did 3rd or 4th place ever chime in with their thoughts? Major difference if he was playing to win or just survived to hu since they're effectively changing the objective of the game.

I always thought a wpt title was tough to get, but this now significantly cheapens that in my eyes.
brandoncla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 08:36 PM   #203
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
It is pretty clear that WPT would not allow this if it was televised, but ignores it when not televised.

Pick one policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
What makes you think that's the case?!?!?!

Savage's tweet only confirms this WPT was not a televised production.

How does your "re-tweet" address in any way robert_utk's comment?
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 10:44 PM   #204
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
.isolated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Team J.A.M.M.A.T. <3 Breh Breh :(
Posts: 14,565
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

He gave three reasons that he thought the deal was fine and broke no rules. I'll let you figure out how it addresses the post I quoted.
.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:55 AM   #205
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
He gave three reasons that he thought the deal was fine and broke no rules. I'll let you figure out how it addresses the post I quoted.
Matt did not "give 3 reasons the deal was fine and broke no rules" as you say, he responded to a couple of very specific statements that stealthmonk made regarding raking the players, whether it was televised, and rules regarding money chops.

No where in Matt Savage's response to stealthmonk did Matt give a green light to colluding and chip dumping for a title/trophy. In fact Matt couldn't green light collusion and chip dumping, it's specifically against every tournament series rules, including WPT's.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:05 AM   #206
illdonk
veteran
 
illdonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,335
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
He gave three reasons that he thought the deal was fine and broke no rules. I'll let you figure out how it addresses the post I quoted.
You disagreed with an opinion that the WPT only allowed this situation to happen because the event wasn’t televised, and quoted a tweet about how this event wasn’t televised as support. So...yeah. I don’t get it either.
illdonk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:55 AM   #207
Banned4lyfe
Sup-Bah? Pop-Bah Pooh-Bear Permanently Pooh-Bah Billy Walters Jr
 
Banned4lyfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SoCal ✈
Posts: 13,764
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

What would the WPT actually do if it was televised and the players agreed to a chop then proceeded to chip dump? Disqualify both players?
Banned4lyfe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 04:45 AM   #208
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
What would the WPT actually do if it was televised and the players agreed to a chop then proceeded to chip dump? Disqualify both players?
It's not the money chop that was the issue, since the money chop is really just a "parking lot" agreement where both players are trusting the other to settle up in the "parking lot" after being paid the stated payouts.

Usually money chops leave a little on the table in addition to the title/trophy and once you've settled on the money chop, you play out the tournament for the title/trophy, and any money left on the table.

The issue is Mike Leah's insistence that any money chop must also include chip dumping him the title/trophy, from a 2.3:1 chip deficit mind you. Now you'd think WPT would have an interest in not allowing this to occur. Not only would it be horrific TV and a stain on the brand, but its also blatantly against all tournament rules.

How could WPT would actually stop it? Retroactively, there are probably several ways, including the right to declare a "no winner" tournament, no winners trophy, no 1st place POY points, no TOC entry. But that's after the fact. But if players know WPT will do this if an absurd chip dumped title occurs, it may prevent it in the future.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:09 AM   #209
p2ryan
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 680
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

regardless what the wpt wouldve ruled, they better rule the same way they would have if Ryan Yu, went on a 4 hour "dinner break" and Mike blinded him away
p2ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM   #210
madlex
Custom User Title
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,743
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Usually money chops leave a little on the table in addition to the title/trophy and once you've settled on the money chop, you play out the tournament for the title/trophy, and any money left on the table.
That’s just not true. Players only leave money to play for if rules/organizers force them to. I can’t remember a single instance where players were like ‘cool, let’s chop and leave xyz on the table for the winner’ unless they had to. If players don’t want to chop and prefer to play to a winner in a serious manner, they just decline the chop offer.

And I am not even talking about big tournaments only. Even at freaking $125 daily tournaments you regularly see chops and nobody ever wants to continue to play to a winner after that.

That whole WPT fiasco would have been avoided if nobody from their live reporting team was stupid enough to post HHs of that HU. Just put the last hand and mention something like ‘Mike Leah chipped up over the last 20 minutes and than this happend..’

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2ryan View Post
regardless what the wpt wouldve ruled, they better rule the same way they would have if Ryan Yu, went on a 4 hour "dinner break" and Mike blinded him away
This. There’s no rule that disallows players from going home if they don’t want to continue to play.
madlex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:03 PM   #211
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
That’s just not true. Players only leave money to play for if rules/organizers force them to.
Oh whatever, sometimes they leave a little cheese, sometimes not. The point, as you know, was that for tournaments where there is something extra to actually winning the title/trophy, like POY points, TOC entry, Champions Trophy, or whatever other tangible or intangibles might be important to someone, after chopping up the remaining prize pool, they play it out for the Title/Trophy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
That whole WPT fiasco would have been avoided if nobody from their live reporting team was stupid enough to post HHs of that HU. Just put the last hand and mention something like ‘Mike Leah chipped up over the last 20 minutes and than this happend..’
Yes, lets bring the poker media into the inner circle to protect collusion and chip dumping a WPT Title. If the media doesn't report it, it never happened.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
There’s no rule that disallows players from going home if they don’t want to continue to play.
But there are rules disallowing soft play, collusion and chip dumping.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM   #212
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 23,910
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Oh whatever, sometimes they leave a little cheese, sometimes not. The point, as you know, was that for tournaments where there is something extra to actually winning the title/trophy, like POY points, TOC entry, Champions Trophy, or whatever other tangible or intangibles might be important to someone, after chopping up the remaining prize pool, they play it out for the Title/Trophy.




Yes, lets bring the poker media into the inner circle to protect collusion and chip dumping a WPT Title. If the media doesn't report it, it never happened.......




But there are rules disallowing soft play, collusion and chip dumping.

It is impossible to do any of those things when every person left in the tournament agrees to the deal.


Yes, if there is a prize for POY or whatever and points are awarded, then deals about who finishes where could affect that. Not really the fault of the players. The organizers need to change their rules regarding how POY points work (I saw mentions of giving both 2nd place POY points or voiding their POY points). And I think it was mentioned that neither of them were in contention for POY, so neither of them were trying to game that system.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM   #213
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
It is impossible to do any of those things when every person left in the tournament agrees to the deal.
I don't think that's accurate. The Title/Trophy belong to the WPT, they are not obligated to hand it over. The money prize pool is a separate issue. If WPT cared about the integrity of their Main Event Tournaments and Title Winners, after witnessing the obvious chip dumped Title/Trophy to the 2.3:1 chip dog, they could've done many things.

They could've denied POY points, denied TOC entry, declared a "no winner" tournament and set a precedent that money chops are one thing but including a chip dumped Title as part of a money chop will not be allowed.

But, for whatever reason WPT was ok with this. I can't wait to see what happens when this takes place at a televised WPT tournament, considering WPT has made it clear that negotiating and chip dumping the Title/Trophy is A-OK with them.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM   #214
madlex
Custom User Title
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,743
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

That won’t happen at a TV event because players aren’t dumb enough to do that. And if somebody tried it anyway, the WPT would tell them to stop or they won’t be allowed to participate in future events.

You still didn’t address p2ryan’s question: what should the WPT do if one of the players decides to leave and get blinded out? If there’s no rule against that, it would be hard to punish someone for chip dumping HU.
madlex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:45 PM   #215
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,572
Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
That won’t happen at a TV event because players aren’t dumb enough to do that. And if somebody tried it anyway, the WPT would tell them to stop or they won’t be allowed to participate in future events.
I wouldn't have thought players were dumb enough to do this even on non-televised stops at major tours like WPT. And like you said, WPT should have told them to stop it on this occasion.

Does WSOP alter it rules for tournaments that aren't televised on EPSN? Would Effel allow an obvious chip dumped bracelet so long as it's not steamed on Poker Central? I doubt it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
You still didn’t address p2ryan’s question: what should the WPT do if one of the players decides to leave and get blinded out? If there’s no rule against that, it would be hard to punish someone for chip dumping HU.
That's a false equivalency. Leaving the table and being blinded away is not the same as chip dumping a Title/Trophy to a more than 2-1 chip dog. One is clearly against the rules, the other is not.

However, I do agree that if WPT determined that you walked away from your stack when heads up at final table as a way to chip dump and throw the title/trophy, then WPT should be able to apply same recourse, no future events etc.

Major tours like WPT, WSOP, etc. are not being unreasonable to expect good faith participation in their events and more specifically good faith participation in the final tables. They are putting a lot of money into the production of these events for television broadcast. They shouldn't have to be concerned about cheating, yes cheating, occurring at the final table. They have every right to expect honest and fair play to determine the winner.

Truthfully I don't blame the WPT so much here as I fault Mike Leah for making a chop conditional on chip dumping him the title from a 2.3:1 chip dog.

Is there no sense of ethics or integrity in Mike Leah that his counter-offer for a prize pool money chop included chip dumping the Title to him? Was there no inner voice that said to him "Uh no we can't do that"? I would've thought a "pro" like Mike Leah would've had the character to realize money chops are one things, but dumping the title/trophy shouldn't be a part of that.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online