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Old 02-13-2018, 11:10 AM   #26
Kelvis
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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Originally Posted by jtm1208 View Post
Lol, that's a completely ridiculous comparison. Not even close to similar circumstances.
Your opinion

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2 thoughts on this:

1) How do we know these two players weren't colluding at the final table in order to get Heads Up? If they colluded once HU, it makes me awfully suspicious about behavior leading up to HU.

2) It just wouldn't feel right to me winning a title in this manner.
1) We don't, but they would be awfully stupid to hide their collusion except for the HU if they had bad intentions

2) Your opinion, clearly the market does not care about it
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:13 AM   #27
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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Do you want to punish a blackjack player if he decides to take another card at 20?
Jesus, where do you people come up with these horrible analogies? What does someone playing blackjack have to do with buying a WPT title?

Would you expect Federer to get sanctioned if he loses his cool and starts winging a few frustration shots to lose a set? Would you expect Federer to be sanctioned if he blatantly gave the win to Nadal for a title by staying still as Nadal served and served everything wide, later to say this Sheikh who really loves Nadal payed me 100 million to throw this game, sorry gaiz.

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Have you followed any EPT highroller side events? It’s not unsuasal for them to just chop and stop play as soon as the last rec is out. Trophy goes to whoever cares for it.
No, I don't care for random donkaments, but show me an example of this please.

I'm not saying winning some random WPT title has much merit, but there should be some credibility to it. It leaves a bad taste for the casual audience following it and delegitimizes your game/event/sport. If you don't see this then I don't know what to tell you.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:16 AM   #28
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

WPT does not seem to care either, and they host it. The market speaks, nobody cares.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:18 AM   #29
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

There is a difference between chopping the money and go allin blind the next hand to flip for a winner and raising 99% of your stack and then fold to an Allin. Both should be called out. Very bad behaviour.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:24 AM   #30
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

It's kind of funny, fame has to be the biggest trap of all time
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:25 AM   #31
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

He who has the gold makes the rules, and in poker, it's the players who are putting up the gold.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:26 AM   #32
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

"Ryan Yu raises to 4,000,000 from the button on the first hand of heads-up play, Mike Leah (pictured) reraises all in for 4,695,000 from the big blind, and Yu folds.
Mike Leah - 8,735,000
Ryan Yu - 6,780,000"
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:27 AM   #33
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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No, I don't care for random donkaments, but show me an example of this please.
Has already been posted in this thread:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/...ller-26642.htm

They chopped, and the guy with 4:1 chip disadvantage took the trophy. If the WPT would officially allow to chop and stop play immediately, people wouldnít have to do the things discussed in OP.
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I'm not saying winning some random WPT title has much merit, but there should be some credibility to it.
Thatís your opinion.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:30 AM   #34
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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He who has the gold makes the rules, and in poker, it's the players who are putting up the gold.
You would think thatís pretty obvious. Yet some people compare a game where people pay hundreds or thousands in rake to have a shot at winning other players money to a sport where players get paid for showing up and/or play for outside money.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:38 AM   #35
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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It simply diminishes what they are playing for, and makes it a farce.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:41 AM   #36
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Quote:
Has already been posted in this thread:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/...ller-26642.htm

They chopped, and the guy with 4:1 chip disadvantage took the trophy. If the WPT would officially allow to chop and stop play immediately, people wouldn’t have to do the things discussed in OP.
Quote:

That's messed up in it's own right, and goes to show you how why poker has such a low reputation if you can do such things openly and everybody seems ok with it.

If you want to chop, that's fine. But at least play the event out or leave it up to chance, predetermining the winner in any way is wrong no matter how you slice it.

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You would think that’s pretty obvious. Yet some people compare a game where people pay hundreds or thousands in rake to have a shot at winning other players money to a sport where players get paid for showing up and/or play for outside money.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. I was comparing winning a poker "title" to a sporting event, or other game event that gives out "distinctions" of any kind, not playing poker? I mean I get you guys are mostly tourney players commenting on this so don't expect you to be the brightest bunch, but holy **** to not find anything wrong with this is astonishing imho.

Last edited by LasFuentes; 02-13-2018 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:41 AM   #37
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Remember the hate for William Kassouf when he took the trophy in an EPT event when it was chopped and he got much less than 2nd place?

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=384120

1st England William Kassouf €532,500 $555,619 224.19
2nd Canada Patrick Serda €719,000 $750,216 185.65
3rd Denmark Tue Hansen €351,000 $366,239 164.15
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:53 AM   #38
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

I just don’t get why you are so obsessed with what other people do with their own money?

FWIW, I almost exclusively play cash games.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:57 AM   #39
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Chopped. Big deal.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:32 PM   #40
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

If they were just playing for money, this wouldn't be a big deal.

But winning a WPT Championship has a lot of benefits beyond the money at stake in the tournament. For example, the article mentions points earned for WPT POY. Colluding over this point distribution affects the equity of everyone who is competing for the POY prize, not just the players who are in on the deal.

I don't care what players do with their money. But if the WPT sees this sort of collusion happening, they should disqualify the colluding players from earning POY points for that tournament, of qualifying for any "Tournament of Champions" events, etc.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #41
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

valid point, does potentially hurt other's equity in that case.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:50 PM   #42
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

In the case of such blatant point dumping they should just give both players second place points. The same could be said for whenever deals are made.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:09 PM   #43
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Casualties of war. It happens.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:15 PM   #44
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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That the few people who replied so far don't see anything wrong with this is why poker is so warped. Since this is a niche community that will be the predominant view in any case, which is what I would have thought before expressing my opinion.

It has nothing to do with money and incentives. It simply diminishes what they are playing for, and makes it a farce. Sure it happens to some extent with chopping, but at least the illusion is there or they are playing just as they normally would, to win, but with less pressure. It's never flat out throwing a game, or at least if it happened (probably did) it's not blatant.

Say you have a rich kid playing tennis who's pretty talented and makes an ITF final, but instead of winning it buys it? Not much incentive, as he just wants the title. Would there be nothing wrong with that? No sanctions and everyone would be ok?

Same thing can be said of poker. Let's say you have a billionaire who really wants EPT/WPT titles so every time he gets to the final 2-3 tables he would just randomly start dishing out huge amounts to flat out buy titles. Nothing wrong with this?

In any case the whole point is that it would diminish the title they are playing for, and makes it worthless. In poker it's not as bad as in other sports/games but the point still stands.
Instead of comparing it to an ITF final you would do better to compare a WPT tournament to a tennis club championship. Little or no outside sponsors putting up big money. No public buying tickets. The only people with a vested interest in the outcome are the players. And it they want to cut a deal between or among themselves it really isn't anybody else's business.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:42 PM   #45
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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Instead of comparing it to an ITF final you would do better to compare a WPT tournament to a tennis club championship. Little or no outside sponsors putting up big money. No public buying tickets. The only people with a vested interest in the outcome are the players. And it they want to cut a deal between or among themselves it really isn't anybody else's business.
How are there no sponsors? Are there no TV deals in place, are there no companies sponsoring the players’ attire? Sure nobody buys anything, but it has an audience and exposure.

A club tournament gets no outside views except those who attend, and maybe a small mention in a local paper. This gets worldwide coverage by several poker news outlets, and can be broadcast on TV (doesn’t seem to be, but could have easily been so), or at least by live play by play. What small club tournament in small town x gets that? It’s much more comparable to an ITF event, and if it had been a bigger prizepool with TV deals, even bigger.

Now aside from points, potentially messing up others’ propbets and anything of the like, there’s the fact that with any kind of “title” there comes a degree of prestige. Will these two advertise themselves as having “bought” a WPT title or having “won it”? The latter was not achieved, no matter how close they had got. It’s shady to be allowed to do that. Maybe it can entail some opportunities in the future, or he is able to dupe some people into coaching based on that “title” or he gets a local advertising deal etc.

It’s not that big of an issue cause “lolpokerz” and everyone is already so used to worse things from this industry that not many care, but the notion still stands. On top of that it’s just simply bad publicity for the WPT, but guess if they’re fine with it and the players don’t mind, sure who cares. I was just arguing a pedantic point about how it comes across as.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:56 PM   #46
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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How are there no sponsors? Are there no TV deals in place, are there no companies sponsoring the players’ attire? Sure nobody buys anything, but it has an audience and exposure.

A club tournament gets no outside views except those who attend, and maybe a small mention in a local paper. This gets worldwide coverage by several poker news outlets, and can be broadcast on TV (doesn’t seem to be, but could have easily been so), or at least by live play by play. What small club tournament in small town x gets that? It’s much more comparable to an ITF event, and if it had been a bigger prizepool with TV deals, even bigger.

Now aside from points, potentially messing up others’ propbets and anything of the like, there’s the fact that with any kind of “title” there comes a degree of prestige. Will these two advertise themselves as having “bought” a WPT title or having “won it”? The latter was not achieved, no matter how close they had got. It’s shady to be allowed to do that. Maybe it can entail some opportunities in the future, or he is able to dupe some people into coaching based on that “title” or he gets a local advertising deal etc.

It’s not that big of an issue cause “lolpokerz” and everyone is already so used to worse things from this industry that not many care, but the notion still stands. On top of that it’s just simply bad publicity for the WPT, but guess if they’re fine with it and the players don’t mind, sure who cares. I was just arguing a pedantic point about how it comes across as.
The tournament hosts and sponsors do not contribute to the prize pool and the players are not making money off of them. The tournament hosts and media companies, and the advertisers who pay them, are making money off of the players. Yes, some players have sponsorship deals but those are separate agreements apart from any tournament prize pool.

If you or anyone else want to assign any value to someone else for winning a poker tournament that's your decision. I don't know too many poker players who do.

Last edited by cockpit; 02-13-2018 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:19 PM   #47
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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Originally Posted by LasFuentes View Post
How are there no sponsors? Are there no TV deals in place, are there no companies sponsoring the playersí attire? Sure nobody buys anything, but it has an audience and exposure.

A club tournament gets no outside views except those who attend, and maybe a small mention in a local paper. This gets worldwide coverage by several poker news outlets, and can be broadcast on TV (doesnít seem to be, but could have easily been so), or at least by live play by play. What small club tournament in small town x gets that? Itís much more comparable to an ITF event, and if it had been a bigger prizepool with TV deals, even bigger.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:26 PM   #48
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

Could this have been done for tax reasons?
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:30 PM   #49
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

in the end, everything is done with taxes in mind.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:11 PM   #50
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Re: Mike Leah Buys A WPT Win

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The only people with a vested interest in the outcome are the players. And it they want to cut a deal between or among themselves it really isn't anybody else's business.
This isn't true in the case of a WPT Championship. Winning WPT Player of the Year has real value beyond what was put up by the players in one particular tournament. And many players beside those involve in this deal, or even those who played in this tournament, have an equity stake in winning it.
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