I know what facts the comments stem from, and those facts do not support this conclusion. Discussing strategy and sharing some hands on an opponent to figure out how to beat them INDIVIDUALLY is not that bad imo. And if we disagree on that, then we can agree to disagree. MAYBE the following is off base but it's where I've developed my thought process thus far:

You are a regular in a home game and bring a buddy to play, on the way there or once you already there, you give him a quick run down of the different people that are going to be there - how they play in general and who to look out for, etc. For the life of me I cannot fathom anyone on this forum not doing this "for the sake of the other players in the game" rather than looking out for your friends first.

Perhaps more relevant you are both regulars in the game and after sessions you discuss hands, share what you had in situations and discuss strategies for beating the other players. However, during the actual play you play 100% independently and individually. <close analogy>

To me, this is all the facts of "Team CR" support, souped up with a little technology. But there is absolutely NOTHING to suggest they are or have ever been in the same room or communicating DURING a session. And to think so would just be ridiculous - how could they ever have meaningful discussions while 5 or 6 tabling PLO? Doesn't. Make. Sense.

SOOOOOOOOOO, in answer to your post of "you have to ask yourself." I have, and to me it comes down simply to group think on the internet which leads to the escalation of a story half founded in truth and fabricated to meet the needs of the audience that is using it, to jealousy, and to an inability to place yourself in someone else's shoes. Because there is not a single person on this thread that would not or has not discussed strategy of how to beat an opponent with a poker friend.

The thing about it is...that all of us as poker players are "needlers". If someone does something bad, wrong, or even out of the ordinary we will needle them nonstop. Thats why u see so many jokes about zeejustin and BT multiaccounting and shuch...same thing with Team cardrunners, truth is they did do something unethical, well Brian Townsend admitted as much and its against teh TnC of FTP. Thats why ppl make comments about how theyre all standing there shadowing each other and all playing at once. It is not a jealousy thing at all, cuz if we all were jealous or wanted to be somebody in the poker world it DEF would not be Brian Hastings. No offense to Stinger just saying there are better, richer poker players out there to be jealous of....not that anybody would be anyway.

Its not hard to understand how people can dislike the card runners guys.

Me personally I don't like they're style and their attitudes at all. They are always so serious about everything and they act like its a job more than its hobby almost all the time.

On the other hand:

you have players like ziggy and Isil, these guys are less about the studying and all that and more about the gamble. And ziggy especially seems like he has fun and has a good time when he is playing.

Its like you could say Ziggy is the gambler and the card runners guys are the nerds in their rooms in front of the computer.

And out of all these poople, Cole is the only player who I have ever seen actually insult another player, not to mention the meetings the group had.

when you make 90% of your money from something i'm pretty sure it qualifies as a job and having more respect for total degens than for people who work hard is kinda lol

So Stinger shipped it again?

I have nothing against isildur and when I watch any sport I would rather cheer for Sweden than for the USA but with the isildur cult running nvg now I can't help but wish stinger busted him again. It will probably happen at some point because that's just how things are. Old 2p2ers will just keep busting tilty fish. There is a reason they have been around for so long.

I realize Hastings has been running very well against him. But then again BT hasn't. When you look at things in perspective you will realize that Isildur does have a huge tilt problem.

And don't forget, a gambler plays to lose so he can feel unlucky and sorry for himself. Quoting Dostoyevsky. Don't admire gambling addiction imo. That's bad for you.

Europeans are way sicker than americans when it comes to gambling.

You mean people from Sweden and Finland, cause they are rich and drink alot of vodka..

First, thank you for a nice, courteous, thoughtful response - I really appreciate it.


I guess that's what gets to me sometimes, and is what I was referring to as group-think, that "that's what we do b/c, well, that's what we do" And I definitely don't think it applies to ALL poker players. Myself and others included in my opinion obv.

Reading this again I think I get that you're making two distinct comments - that it was unethical AND against the TnC of FTP. My first reaction was "i'm glad we can look to the TnC of FTP to tell us what is/is not ethical, WHEW. but I don't think that you are saying it was unethical BECAUSE it was against the TnC.

Fair enough, that's your opinion and I have to respect that - Stinger definitely would be in the group I am envious of though - and yes I admit envy is my 7 deadly sins. No need to debate this tho.


If you're saying nobody would be jealous of any of those other richer, better poker players than Stinger, then I whole-heartedly disagree with you.

that makes sense people talk **** about cole and hastings because townsend datamined. and hastings being a 21yo millionaire at a game so many people on here suck at has nothing to do with jealousy.

this. this. this. i think isildur's the ****, but most of his followers here in nvg are pathetic

This post is all kinds of LOLbad. Let's write off and root against those who, for some crazy ass reason OHMYGOD, choose to work hard and study.

"Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one." - Bill Gates

And since when is insulting another player a criteria for being either a good poker player or someone worth rooting for?

i completely agree with you "imnotsolucky" well said

Ur welcome...and yes i do think it was somewhat unethical but not because it was against the FTP terms n conditions. Thats just a pretty silly rule to be honest...cuz it cant really be enforced. So why even have it in there? but thats another point altogether. And as far as the jealousy thing, I mean isnt there other ppl in this world we should be jealous of instead of poker players? What constitues us being jealous of them...is is because they have money? Im fairly certain Darving freakin Moon has more money than all of us combined but does that mean were jealous of him? Sure we all wish we had the money from a game we all play, but money doesnt really make or break a person. It would suck to look at a wealthy person and be jealous of them or want to be them, simply because they may have problems in their lives that we would never ever face or want to. It is perfectly acceptable to look up to and admire many of these players, especially those who grinded their way from nothing as opposed to a one hit wonder tourney donk. But if u look on these pages, CTS and Briant Townsend and Stinger are all 2+2ers...and have been for a long time. I think its a shame that alot of ppl root for Isi, Zig, and Ivey when they dont even care what 2+2 even is lol. I met Cole South before in some tourney in vegas a few years back and he's a great guy really nice and down to earth, but he gets just as much hate as anybody else on these forums. Do i agree with it? no not really. Do i root for Isi when they play? yes. 2+2 has taken sides and a vast majority have taken Isi's side and they will root for him and root against whoever he's playing simple as that. Its kinda like being drunk at football game and ur team is playing the Colts, Payton manning will hear a bunch of stuff about him, his mom, etc. lol but thats just part of the game and fans will do that. You saying we shouldnt or perhaps defending Stinger is only gonna make them do it more. One more thing....##$@ paragraphs!!!

this exactly.

posts like this always make me feel positive about pokers future. and i guess kinda scared for the future of these forums but i guess there already Fd

Last time Hastings ran 3 million above EV. So he might be losing overall in terms of Sklansky bucks to isildur.

summarizing these last battles towards the HighstakesDB results of isildur's profit of 280k.


+1m(ish) from ziig
-80k to Cole South
-540k to Hastings
-230kish to ZeeJusting
+90k from Lars Luzak


----->> roughly +280k night for Isildur, which is what hsdb roughly have him at. + and - some k's here and there, just did some gorilla maths to sum up latest events, enjoy

.

After some fantastic action and hand histories, the thread goes back to it's normal state.

Isildur still +$1M in march. One of these days it should be possible to have an even EV session against CR, it just has to be possible..

i personally do not think reviewing hands is cheating, but who cares what i think (and what you think). full tilt stipulated their "house rules" and the CR boys are in clear violation of it. in full tilt's opinion, there is no doubt CR cheated.


continue with the cheating jokes please, they are hilarious

Swede taxing finns, then pissing it away.

Nothing really changed since stormaktstiden.

ImNotSoLucky, you had a great analogy there except for one little thing that spoils everything.

In your analogy they both were in the same game, so discussing hands that occurred between himself and another player with someone who actually was also dealt in the hand is not an error.

The reality, isildur vs team cardrunners were that he played them all invidividually as it should be in headsup. Reality showed us tho that he played them all individiually, but they amassed the handhistories from everyone and converged it into one database and analyzed it.

You should not be able to access handhistories that you were not dealt in, nevertheless a whole database of 10k+ hands(each, total db ended on 30kish?). One hand here and there doesn't break someones gameplan down, his abc-lines etc.

Enough of this, I do not really care anymore just wanted to point out the main differences in your analogy, however i do agree on the "fast talk through with your bud on the way to the game" -scenario, everyone does it but that is so vastly different than the isildur-thing in reality that it should not even be compared but that is my opinion.

However, as I said I don't really care anymore, and I am sure Isildur1 doesn't care either, it is not that he lacks action so he have to crawl back to them.

Not as long as Cardrunners is owned by FullTilt.

Josem from Pokerstars had no problem doing this vs the ub clowns...have him run the numbers...should be a piece of cake.