this is really stupid, though. for obvious reasons i think

i'm not gonna bold half the post, but you write like you're 12

edd whats your real name? lets see your live stats.

these threads always seem like levels to me

Maximose returns?

A lot of the livepros are onlinepros as well, as what do they count?(Antonius,Ivey for example).
Also the livepros might have a edge with their tells for quite a while but after some time everyone will figure out what their tells are and maybe even use them against the other player.

The live vs online distinction is pretty much imaginary. There aren't a lot of people who would make a list of the top 50 best live players who haven't played a good bit online and vice versa.

this. i think there are players who are really good at picking up on small tells but i think they're way smaller in number than you would think (caveat: never played w/Ivey or Antonius for any meaningful amount of time live). In my experience a lot of the better-regarded live players have had very mixed success in their plays that came from physical reads to the point where it's very hard for me to say that they have any noticeable skill in the matter

this isn't to say that there's no reading other people involved, but it is to say that for live pros to have a noticeable edge over online pros requires assuming that they're picking up on some very subtle/intangible live tells when, in my experience, those are the very tells that basically don't get consistently interpreted by really good players. which makes a lot of sense, because making 300 BB decisions based on whether the guy confidently put his chips into the pot is going to be super-high variance and the informational edge you get, if any, from such stuff is going to be very very slim even if you're skilled at picking up on these things

I think this is very much overstating the case and that a lot of online players don't have anywhere near "complete control of their body language" (myself included). but they have enough to the point where their tells are extremely difficult to interpret. i played once with a great online player who every once in a while when he bet big his neck would start pulsing and he would lose color in his face but then I noticed that it had happened both when he had the nuts and when he was bluffing. it's not that high stakes players don't have tells, it's that they don't have the obvious ones and their tells are often unreliable

ROFL. Every subsequent post you make is even more ridiculous than the previous. I wonder how many more times you pull it off? Facial tics and pulsating jugulars to fold the 2nd nuts ftw?

I honestly dont believe in ranking players period, anyone can beat anyone on any given day.....

Ill just say this, most players don't realize how much information there is available, When i say this I mean 99.5% of them, most live players are clueless as well. I play primarilly cash, but up until last year I had the highest final table per tournament played ratio in the country.

My edge came almost completely from beating aggressive online players. Because they are splashing around more opening light 3 & 4 betting light, the pots are larger, someone that can pick up body language will murder them. 99% of live players can't do this well, that's why online players are doing well against them. But they are getting murdered by the the best live players that can do this.

I see in almost every tournament, there's aggressive online players accumulating chips early because of the shear number of them, someone is going to run extremely good & through lots of small marginal equity flips win a lot of chips, however I see several of these live pros steadily grinding up each level picking their spots & making it deep only the end to have a shot at playing the lucky player, these players are folding marginal spots & picking better spots, chipping up slowly with the levels, getting deep consistently & having shots to win at the end.

lol soul reads.. this argument is so played out

People go broke because they have poor BR management/game selection, they are degenerates, or they suck. The best players will excel both live and online because they have a deep understanding of the game and make adjustments accordingly

Unless your ratio was 1 to 1 there is no way you could know this.

This is spot on. With regards to PI/PA, they also won big online where no physical reads are available, so it's tough to say they are great tell "readers" or w/e nonsense OP is throwing out since they basically dominate in both venues. Do they really play their hands all that differently live than online?Better evidence of this fairy tale skill would be to observe players who were pretty atrocious online, but killed live games by altering their play significantly from standard lines where no physical reads are available.

Also most people highly overrate the value of physical tells.

And you may accurately deduce from a tell that someone is confident about their hand, but they have misread that situation and have no right to be relative to the range of cards you have in that spot. The reverse obviously follows.

Also OP, since you have this unique, unquantifiable, statistically untestable, and hugely profitable ethereal metaskill, I'm sure glad you've finally registered on 2p2 to come tell all of us about it.

especially OP

you make so many awful generalizations. here you just describe the difference between a good and a bad player- -there are online and live regs on both ends of this spectrum

Coughing = the nuts

lol funny stuff..online players play MANY more hands and gain a lot more experience. i like the thing about soul-reading, like it's magic or something.

Ive been a winning live player for 5yrs and "feel" has more to do with my game than tells but thats something you develop over time cause i sure didnt have it when I started out.

There are situations where I have called a $10000 or $15000 river bet knowing the guy thinks he's bluffing based on his body language & still have me beat, A couple of years ago I called a lady in 25 50 nl game for 15k river bet, I had 4th pair, but she had missed nut flush draw & caught middle pair, she thought she had to bet on the end to win. Ive had this happen several times over my career , so sometimes you can know & still be wrong. But interpreting body language is the #1 underestimated edge in poker.

All the guys that think its overrated just don't know how to interpret it correctly, that's obviously the key

Extremely good live players know the math and also know how to ascertain subtle physical tells as well. Therefore they acquire more information which they apply to their decisions.

Although live players are generally much worse, the elite ones definitely have an edge in the live arena due to the number of times they have had to read tells. Their familiarity with the live environment makes them obviously more experienced and skilled at exploiting the additional information afforded in live play.