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Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players

07-19-2011 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
Wow, no one's ever gone deep in the ME and not been a super skilled poker player.
this is really stupid, though. for obvious reasons i think
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDDtown
I'll give an example of someone I met several years ago that I thought was mainly an online guy. TK miles. He's did very well in both, but over the years playing with him he's got extremely good at utilizing things he's learned playing live. I think he's one of the best & will probably see him much much more down the road. I think he's one of the few that have the online knowledge as well has developed a killer live game around it.
i'm not gonna bold half the post, but you write like you're 12
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 09:57 PM
edd whats your real name? lets see your live stats.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:05 PM
these threads always seem like levels to me
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:12 PM
A lot of the livepros are onlinepros as well, as what do they count?(Antonius,Ivey for example).
Also the livepros might have a edge with their tells for quite a while but after some time everyone will figure out what their tells are and maybe even use them against the other player.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:13 PM
The live vs online distinction is pretty much imaginary. There aren't a lot of people who would make a list of the top 50 best live players who haven't played a good bit online and vice versa.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewRyan
Its possible that you are correct; but seems much more likely that you are grossly overestimating the amount of consistent soul-reading going on.
this. i think there are players who are really good at picking up on small tells but i think they're way smaller in number than you would think (caveat: never played w/Ivey or Antonius for any meaningful amount of time live). In my experience a lot of the better-regarded live players have had very mixed success in their plays that came from physical reads to the point where it's very hard for me to say that they have any noticeable skill in the matter

this isn't to say that there's no reading other people involved, but it is to say that for live pros to have a noticeable edge over online pros requires assuming that they're picking up on some very subtle/intangible live tells when, in my experience, those are the very tells that basically don't get consistently interpreted by really good players. which makes a lot of sense, because making 300 BB decisions based on whether the guy confidently put his chips into the pot is going to be super-high variance and the informational edge you get, if any, from such stuff is going to be very very slim even if you're skilled at picking up on these things
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigmarq
If you think peoples' ears wiggle when they're bluffing you've been watching too many movies. Are there indicators that you can use as a piece of your decision making process? Yes of course there are things you can pick up on live that you can't online however anyone playing the game at the top level is going to be in complete control of their body language.
I think this is very much overstating the case and that a lot of online players don't have anywhere near "complete control of their body language" (myself included). but they have enough to the point where their tells are extremely difficult to interpret. i played once with a great online player who every once in a while when he bet big his neck would start pulsing and he would lose color in his face but then I noticed that it had happened both when he had the nuts and when he was bluffing. it's not that high stakes players don't have tells, it's that they don't have the obvious ones and their tells are often unreliable
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDDtown
Collegefund, I don't doubt that online players would win online, what i'm saying is that online poker is only a smaller version of poker, It's 2 different things. There is so much more skill in live poker it isn't even dabatable. The edge in online poker will some day become nonexistant with rake as the bigger factor because most will eventually learn math theory to the point where rake can't be beat.

This could never happen live, too many variables, the best will always be able to get creative enough to force oppenents in bad situations to give off tells.
ROFL. Every subsequent post you make is even more ridiculous than the previous. I wonder how many more times you pull it off? Facial tics and pulsating jugulars to fold the 2nd nuts ftw?
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:24 PM
I honestly dont believe in ranking players period, anyone can beat anyone on any given day.....
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:25 PM
Ill just say this, most players don't realize how much information there is available, When i say this I mean 99.5% of them, most live players are clueless as well. I play primarilly cash, but up until last year I had the highest final table per tournament played ratio in the country.

My edge came almost completely from beating aggressive online players. Because they are splashing around more opening light 3 & 4 betting light, the pots are larger, someone that can pick up body language will murder them. 99% of live players can't do this well, that's why online players are doing well against them. But they are getting murdered by the the best live players that can do this.

I see in almost every tournament, there's aggressive online players accumulating chips early because of the shear number of them, someone is going to run extremely good & through lots of small marginal equity flips win a lot of chips, however I see several of these live pros steadily grinding up each level picking their spots & making it deep only the end to have a shot at playing the lucky player, these players are folding marginal spots & picking better spots, chipping up slowly with the levels, getting deep consistently & having shots to win at the end.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:27 PM
lol soul reads.. this argument is so played out

People go broke because they have poor BR management/game selection, they are degenerates, or they suck. The best players will excel both live and online because they have a deep understanding of the game and make adjustments accordingly
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDDtown
I play primarilly cash, but up until last year I had the highest final table per tournament played ratio in the country.
Unless your ratio was 1 to 1 there is no way you could know this.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxwoodsFiend
this. i think there are players who are really good at picking up on small tells but i think they're way smaller in number than you would think (caveat: never played w/Ivey or Antonius for any meaningful amount of time live). In my experience a lot of the better-regarded live players have had very mixed success in their plays that came from physical reads to the point where it's very hard for me to say that they have any noticeable skill in the matter

this isn't to say that there's no reading other people involved, but it is to say that for live pros to have a noticeable edge over online pros requires assuming that they're picking up on some very subtle/intangible live tells when, in my experience, those are the very tells that basically don't get consistently interpreted by really good players. which makes a lot of sense, because making 300 BB decisions based on whether the guy confidently put his chips into the pot is going to be super-high variance and the informational edge you get, if any, from such stuff is going to be very very slim even if you're skilled at picking up on these things
This is spot on. With regards to PI/PA, they also won big online where no physical reads are available, so it's tough to say they are great tell "readers" or w/e nonsense OP is throwing out since they basically dominate in both venues. Do they really play their hands all that differently live than online?Better evidence of this fairy tale skill would be to observe players who were pretty atrocious online, but killed live games by altering their play significantly from standard lines where no physical reads are available.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:30 PM
Also most people highly overrate the value of physical tells.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxwoodsFiend
I think this is very much overstating the case and that a lot of online players don't have anywhere near "complete control of their body language" (myself included). but they have enough to the point where their tells are extremely difficult to interpret. i played once with a great online player who every once in a while when he bet big his neck would start pulsing and he would lose color in his face but then I noticed that it had happened both when he had the nuts and when he was bluffing. it's not that high stakes players don't have tells, it's that they don't have the obvious ones and their tells are often unreliable
And you may accurately deduce from a tell that someone is confident about their hand, but they have misread that situation and have no right to be relative to the range of cards you have in that spot. The reverse obviously follows.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:33 PM
Also OP, since you have this unique, unquantifiable, statistically untestable, and hugely profitable ethereal metaskill, I'm sure glad you've finally registered on 2p2 to come tell all of us about it.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
Also most people highly overrate the value of physical tells.
especially OP
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDDtown
I see in almost every tournament, there's aggressive online players accumulating chips early because of the shear number of them, someone is going to run extremely good & through lots of small marginal equity flips win a lot of chips, however I see several of these live pros steadily grinding up each level picking their spots & making it deep only the end to have a shot at playing the lucky player, these players are folding marginal spots & picking better spots, chipping up slowly with the levels, getting deep consistently & having shots to win at the end.
you make so many awful generalizations. here you just describe the difference between a good and a bad player- -there are online and live regs on both ends of this spectrum
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:35 PM
Coughing = the nuts
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:35 PM
lol funny stuff..online players play MANY more hands and gain a lot more experience. i like the thing about soul-reading, like it's magic or something.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:36 PM
Ive been a winning live player for 5yrs and "feel" has more to do with my game than tells but thats something you develop over time cause i sure didnt have it when I started out.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:40 PM
There are situations where I have called a $10000 or $15000 river bet knowing the guy thinks he's bluffing based on his body language & still have me beat, A couple of years ago I called a lady in 25 50 nl game for 15k river bet, I had 4th pair, but she had missed nut flush draw & caught middle pair, she thought she had to bet on the end to win. Ive had this happen several times over my career , so sometimes you can know & still be wrong. But interpreting body language is the #1 underestimated edge in poker.

All the guys that think its overrated just don't know how to interpret it correctly, that's obviously the key
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote
07-19-2011 , 10:43 PM
Extremely good live players know the math and also know how to ascertain subtle physical tells as well. Therefore they acquire more information which they apply to their decisions.

Although live players are generally much worse, the elite ones definitely have an edge in the live arena due to the number of times they have had to read tells. Their familiarity with the live environment makes them obviously more experienced and skilled at exploiting the additional information afforded in live play.
Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten players in the world will always be live players Quote

      
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