Who Lego05? What's his real name, I'm old and feeble, and have forgotten.

Samoleus >> random live pro (even if he is from the mecca of poker - ole miss)

I didnt read the whole thread so this may have been pointed out, but most of the top live players were online players. I guess you would need to point out who the top ten are for this topic to have any relevance.

Didnt he have a big stack, then folded his way down to 13bb, then rejammed it in w/A8s?

I thought his awesome live reads would be able to tell him that his opponent had a big ace.

Because it's not accurate maybe? If it is, then play Samoleus. I'm sure there are plenty of "online players" who would line up to play someone that exhibits such a dearth of logic in his basic thought processes about poker.

Live play vs. Online & why the Top ten Live players in the world will always be live players

ftfy

you failed

but the best online players, which are the ones that have studied math, are better than the best live players. It's actually pretty simple. not sure why everyone wants to argue it.



COME UP WITH SOMETHING REASONABLE TO DEFEND YOURSELF. YOU WRITE LIKE YOU'RE IN MIDDLE SCHOOL, AND YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE SO LOL BAD.

craigmarq.

Oh, and even if OP reads players perfectly (which I'll conceded for now), which is a bigger skill, being able to read players perfectly, or being able to use that information correctly? LOL at calling a bluffer when you can't beat a bluff.

that's when you snap call and watch them turbo muck their hand

Oh, duh. Not like I know Craig, or drove up to Vegas from Tucson to watch his FT or anything.

The ten best players in a live high stakes nl or plo cash game or MTTs will almost certainly have a sufficient amount of live experience/control over their body to not give away physical tells. But they will also have have solid mathematical fundamentals and a boatload of experience developing a robust thought process in how they go about making optimal adjustments to betting patterns against strong thinking opponents. If stacks are 100bb deep or less, a live player without any extensive online experience wouldn't have a chance against a table full of elite competition who come from an online background, even in a live environment.

On the other hand, elite online players without a lot of experience against live fish won't be able to crush live fish as hard as the best players with extensive live experience. This skillset involves interpreting live tells from fish and employing highly exploitive lines and unbalanced bet sizing to own them as hard as possible.

Another area where live experience comes into play is when stacks get to be 500bb+ deep. Decisions are much more complex and even elite online players with minimal live experience might be lost in some spots if they find themselves playing with more bbs in front of them than they ever have before.

The top 10 nl/plo players in a live environment have a devloped a robust thought process in how they go about decisions through their experience online and have sufficient control over their physical behavior to not give off tells. They have a good deal of live experience adjusting to deep stacks in tough lineups and own live fish as hard as possible through the use of physical tells and highly exploitive betting strategies.

I agree that there is a secret group of amazing soul-reading live players that never become famous. They play in private games and underground card rooms only. We're talking games that only Tony G can get into.

They would crush any online pro or famous TV pro, easily. I would bet a lot of money on it. (But I don't know who they are because no one does--they are secret.)

I laughed out loud.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ do people make WAY too big a deal out of "tells". Players can reverse tells, you know. I do it all the time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Kinda like "tells". Reads based on bet sizing, line, opponent range, and stack sizes are FAR more useful, period.

I shake all the time. Can't help it. Especially when I get in a big pot, regardless of my holding. I can't tell you how often people misinterpret this as strength, weakness, or whatever the F they want to think it is. They are right as often as chance, but if they want to think they used a tell on me, I certainly don't mind using it against them in the future.

"Tells" are just another tool to use when getting a "read", which aren't the same thing. I get reads all the time, they rarely have anything to do with tells.

i think i'n better

To give an example, when I was deep in the main that one time I noticed that Matusow was paying really close attention to my body language. In a bunch of spots where I wanted to appear stronger than I was I leaned my body forward towards the table a minute amount, just enough to be noticeable. I had been sitting in a pretty relaxed position the majority of the time and I could tell he was picking up on my change in posture. Being that he thought I was a live fish I'm confident he read that as strength when the opposite was true.

I don't think he meant me. Seemed to me like he meant craigmarq.


Also ... I thought it came across pretty well that I was being sarcastic, but maybe not. I've never made a FT at the WSOP ME .... or any WSOP event for that matter. And I think that should be understandable given that I've never played in a WSOP event.

I shake like a mo fo too and I also can't control my heart beat in big pots both when I'm making a dumb bluff or if I have a good hand. Just the other day when Lamb had 32o and overbet the river, his carotid artery was pulsating like a mo fo whereas I think most people would assume that would be a "bluff tell."

Live tells are important.



EDDtown, since you taught Claudia all she knows, would she be able to pick up on this tell?

I'd rather ask why do the online pros that come from having 20 seconds to make a decision always seem to take forever playing live?

Isnt peachymer actually a good online player?

These things ring very true. It is likely that the best 'live players' have put in extensive volume live, and can pick up on small things an online player would miss. Still, the BEST players won't just be completely feel. They should have highly functioning thought processes that guide many of their decisions. Someone who relies 100% on various reads someone gives off and not logical reasoning, deduction, and some vague idea of poker range equities (even if they don't know that's what they're doing) is doomed to fail, and therefore could never be the best live player.

Highly capable players are unlikely to give off anything, and most of the best online players thinking is so complex the minor things they might give off would be insignificant. Lets see one of these soul owners use their live read to try and bluff catch someone who has a completely balanced range in a spot and is capable of valuebetting so thin that it is almost impossible to determine if online kid appears weak because he is bluffing or valuebetting a 2nd/3rd pair.

More often than not, live I've realized these 'soul-read' live players use their tells as an excuse to justify being calling stations. The tell they appeared to pick up is a justification for a marginal call that they'd likely always make, since it is unlikely they would fold.

Many live players, especially the ones who suck (most of them), tend to significantly overestimate the importance of live tells, partly because their thought process can be so shallow that it is one of the only things they have to go on, but most online players underestimate the value in looking for live tells from fish. Yes, observing betting patterns is the most important component of a read, but if a live tell only rarely factors into your read and you play with fish, you aren't paying close enough attention. If weaker players give away timing tells online, don't you think at least some of them give at least those tells plus potentially many more? Do you think Ben Lamb stares at his opponents for no reason other than intimidation, or do you think he is trying his hardest to take advantage of any possible piece of information he can?

A large part of the "tell" story is simply based on timing or betting patterns, and of course any good online player can make use of that. As noted, physical tells can be manipulated or can vary from player to player. A player can be nervous when they have the stone cold nuts or a stone cold bluff. Obviously players can manipulate or mimic actions so that they do the same thing in either case.

A great player is going to make better use of the information given in tells, obviously, because he/she is a great poker player.

Agree, but I think the vast majority of competent online players can pick up on the boatload of free information fish give away.