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Old 11-14-2017, 01:34 PM   #501
IHaveThreePair
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by Ace upmy Slv View Post
Sorry, I should have said fresh air and fragrances, not actual O2. Was everything else grammatically correct for your liking? Glad you focused on the point I was making.......
What's the scam here? Did I miss the scientific link between Fresh Air and being a bigger degenerate?
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:58 PM   #502
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Rob Yong's version actually makes the most sense here. Sounds like Matt had a backer that wanted the 3 mil and didn't want to settle for less.

I guess most of us can't understand how the high stakes poker world operates but maybe we can focus on the logistics. Mainly, how does LT physically get the chips to gamble with? If Matt just pushed him $3mil in chips across the table when he was snot slinging drunk and semi-conscious then what do you expect?

If later he agrees to pay Matt why doesn't Matt take the money when the getting is good?

If a similar situation comes up I would think it would pay to protect your capital (and your backers) and say something along the lines of '...if you want to keep playing then sign a marker at the cage...' or have a manager bring one to the table and sign it there, then the cage can give him the chips.

When and if he loses then he is on the hook to the Aria and not Matt which is a much more stable legal platform to operate from.

Sounds simple to me but I've proven to be easily confused.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:18 PM   #503
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

If Rob Yong's account of the situation is accurate then I really don't like how Matt Kirk handled the situation. Offering a settlement and then demanding to be paid in full is ridiculous.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:12 PM   #504
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Leon owes 3m total nothing else maters its pretty simple
IF you are drunk its your own fault, what a lame excuse.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:37 PM   #505
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Yeah but if you shake on a deal, it's a deal.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:48 PM   #506
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by WhatsUpGuys View Post
Leon owes 3m total nothing else maters its pretty simple
IF you are drunk its your own fault, what a lame excuse.
If you expect others to honor their debts, you should honor your agreements.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:46 AM   #507
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Guys- i dealt with situations before where i got scammed for like 1000 and when i knew there was 0% chance id ever get that 1000 i agreed to"ok just gimme 400 and we're even" then i can get that amount and move on with my life. This only happens when im 100% sure i wont get paid in full

I think Matt might have been in this situation, and he might have frozeup and made a mistake making a "Deal" but the fact of the matter is he got scammed for 3 million, and Leon is scum. Theres no denying that. Why would Matt risk losing 3milly+ god knows howmuch more possibly if hes only going to "Settle " and make a deal for a third? do you know what im saying?
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:13 AM   #508
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Matt obviously handled the situation poorly but Leon owes him the money clearly. If Leon's version of events is true he should sue Aria to recoup the money and win but I very much doubt that his version of events is true.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:13 PM   #509
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
Matt obviously handled the situation poorly but Leon owes him the money clearly. If Leon's version of events is true he should sue Aria to recoup the money and win but I very much doubt that his version of events is true.
Huh??? Is anyone seriously questioning Tsucker's account at this point?

Tsucker laid out the events and Yong confirmed them. I'm far from a fan of Tsucker, but it makes no sense for anyone to question if Tsucker is telling the truth or not.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:13 PM   #510
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

I love (read hate) how everyone is talking about Kirk and no one is talking about Elton.

unless that was settled and I missed it, he deserves some discussion in this thread.

(and I will immediately start talking about Kirk again, lol) It seems to me that Kirk was threatened or something. I mean, 3 mil, 2 mil, 2 mil plus a mil vs mil freeze out and then suddenly he only gets paid 1 mil?? That makes entirely no sense to me. Either that, or they settled it without telling anyone and used the million as their public story?
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:49 AM   #511
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by WhatsUpGuys View Post
Guys- i dealt with situations before where i got scammed for like 1000 and when i knew there was 0% chance id ever get that 1000 i agreed to"ok just gimme 400 and we're even" then i can get that amount and move on with my life. This only happens when im 100% sure i wont get paid in full
can people stop comparing their 1000$ debts with this

Spoiler:
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:48 PM   #512
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by the orange crush View Post
I love (read hate) how everyone is talking about Kirk and no one is talking about Elton.

unless that was settled and I missed it, he deserves some discussion in this thread.

(and I will immediately start talking about Kirk again, lol) It seems to me that Kirk was threatened or something. I mean, 3 mil, 2 mil, 2 mil plus a mil vs mil freeze out and then suddenly he only gets paid 1 mil?? That makes entirely no sense to me. Either that, or they settled it without telling anyone and used the million as their public story?
Maybe Kirk knew that he had been part of a 'hit' on Tsoukernik and was initially happy to take what he could get - and was then told (the mysterious phonecall) he wasn't allowed to settle? Think of reasons for someone behind Kirk to do this to Tsoukernik (who was opening a high stakes room for the summer...)

As for the Tsang story, I was 100% behind him until I read that Calvin Ayre stuff and looked a bit deeper...run an underground cardroom in Hong Kong and then present yourself as an angel? Seriously? Hmmm...well, stranger things have happened I guess.

Spotted an article on Cardplayer today about a Trump-related legal action which might mirror - and ruin - Tsoukernik's 'plied with alcohol' defence
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...oker-debt-case
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:32 PM   #513
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by the orange crush View Post
I love (read hate) how everyone is talking about Kirk and no one is talking about Elton.

unless that was settled and I missed it, he deserves some discussion in this thread.

(and I will immediately start talking about Kirk again, lol) It seems to me that Kirk was threatened or something. I mean, 3 mil, 2 mil, 2 mil plus a mil vs mil freeze out and then suddenly he only gets paid 1 mil?? That makes entirely no sense to me. Either that, or they settled it without telling anyone and used the million as their public story?
I have no knowledge that no-one else has so i'm purely speculating....

Suppose leon wasn't expecting a deal, then gets offered $2m+$1m HU (Rob claims he suggested it before Leon ever woke up and seems entirely believable) Leon comes down, gets offered the deal, accepts and thinks it's done. Then 20 mins later gets told the deal is off (quite annoying, speshly when you're hungover and just dusted $3m) so you dig a bit deeper and find out the guy you lost $3m to the night before was staked by an owner of the casino you were playing in...

Now not saying that would ever justify not paying any of the debt, however, you can sympathise a little with how they would make you feel slightly mugged off.
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:57 AM   #514
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post

As for the Tsang story, I was 100% behind him until I read that Calvin Ayre stuff and looked a bit deeper...run an underground cardroom in Hong Kong and then present yourself as an angel?
imo there is absolutely nothing wrong with running an underground game, unless they are cheating. Was that claim made?
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Old 11-17-2017, 04:45 AM   #515
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

A good system - which does not continue to serve drunks, for example - would help prevent these kinds of things from happening, and is preferable to a bad system. But a bad system does not relieve individuals of their own personal responsibility for their actions. Even if his opponent across the table, and the casino itself, were not perfect angels, the middle aged person who was undoubtedly well acquainted with both alcohol and high stakes gambling is primarily the one responsible when he gets drunk and loses millions in a casino.

I would hate to think that he could be excused from his debt, or entitled to damages, even if the circumstances he described are accurate (e.g. the casino gave him drinks and did not permit his friends to drag him away against his will).
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:25 AM   #516
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by the orange crush View Post
imo there is absolutely nothing wrong with running an underground game, unless they are cheating. Was that claim made?
I don't think there's anything wrong with it either if it's straight up - and I have no reason to believe anyone was cheated - but if you're doing such a thing in Hong Kong you're probably either 'connected' or stupid.

My point is that Tsang then acts all naive in the discussion about Tsoukernik...

'“Leon sent a lot of people to talk to me during this time, and they hinted to me that Leon is not a boy scout and stuff like that. Hinting that he has a background, etc, etc. I’m like whatever, if he is going to kill me, he is going to kill me."

Seriously? gtfo.
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:55 AM   #517
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
My point is that Tsang then acts all naive in the discussion about Tsoukernik...

'“Leon sent a lot of people to talk to me during this time, and they hinted to me that Leon is not a boy scout and stuff like that. Hinting that he has a background, etc, etc. I’m like whatever, if he is going to kill me, he is going to kill me."
I think you are wrong here about his naivety. There are stages of life and making choices. Some people give no ****s at all, that quote is from somebody who does not give a ****. I understand it because once you free your mind and just let everything go, nobody can stop you. There are many ways of getting to that stage.

If you go through a life or death situation and live through it you may not give a **** about dying anymore, you thought about it, processed it and it changed the way you live. You realize that life is short and it's time to live life to the fullest, you say what you want to. I have been there, this quote sound very familiar to me.

Consequences be damned.

yolo

etc.

Last edited by the orange crush; 11-17-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 11-17-2017, 07:56 AM   #518
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by the orange crush View Post
I think you are wrong here about his naivety. There are stages of life and making choices. Some people give no ****s at all, that quote is from somebody who does not give a ****. I understand it because once you free your mind and just let everything go, nobody can stop you. There are many ways of getting to that stage.

If you go through a life or death situation and live through it you may not give a **** about dying anymore, you thought about it, processed it and it changed the way you live. You realize that life is short and it's time to live life to the fullest, you say what you want to. I have been there, this quote sound very familiar to me.

Consequences be damned.

yolo

etc.
That's not what I'm getting at at all Orange Crush. I understand what you mean, but what I'm saying is...

...if you've run an underground poker den in Hong Kong then you're likely not going to be scared of some random casino boss in Europe, because you probably know some much scarier people yourself (Triads/connected to triads/etc) If anything, Tsoukernik should be the one who is worried about $million debts in such a situation!
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:16 AM   #519
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
That's not what I'm getting at at all Orange Crush. I understand what you mean, but what I'm saying is...

...if you've run an underground poker den in Hong Kong then you're likely not going to be scared of some random casino boss in Europe, because you probably know some much scarier people yourself (Triads/connected to triads/etc) If anything, Tsoukernik should be the one who is worried about $million debts in such a situation!
I imagine Leon has a few contacts in such places too - but I think we're bringing far too much hollywood into this situation... there's not going to be any triads or mafias involved.

The amounts are large sums of money for sure. I could give up work and live a pretty life with them, but it's not going to make Elton, Leon or Matt/Matt's backer broke and living on the streets...
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:49 AM   #520
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by IHaveThreePair View Post
I imagine Leon has a few contacts in such places too - but I think we're bringing far too much hollywood into this situation... there's not going to be any triads or mafias involved.

The amounts are large sums of money for sure. I could give up work and live a pretty life with them, but it's not going to make Elton, Leon or Matt/Matt's backer broke and living on the streets...
I agree Just saying I doubt Tsang is a choirboy, but also Tsoukernik shouldn't be playing these games if he doesn't like the possible outcomes, whether they are fair or not.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:06 AM   #521
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Lending the money is fine imo, not paying back is not. i dont understand why not just say i dont have that kind of money right now in cash available, will pay 500k a month or something. Scammer.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:12 AM   #522
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

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Originally Posted by IHaveThreePair View Post
What's the scam here? Did I miss the scientific link between Fresh Air and being a bigger degenerate?
Boy you guys are dense. No scam. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of Leon's claim. Maybe read the first post....
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:49 AM   #523
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Leon Tsoukernik

I know there is already a post on Leon but I feel as many people need to know this as possible.

Leon is a cheat and a thief. This is a well known, widespread and accepted fact in the high-stakes poker community. It is not said publicly because people are afraid of Leon.

Leon is a winner in high-stakes games at his Kings Casino and in heads up matches there. He losses big everywhere else he plays. Three big-name well respected players have told large numbers of high stakes players that they were cheated by Leon at Kings Casino. The most famous of these players said he is afraid to talk publicly about it due to fear of physical harm.

Leon along with Martin Kabhrel were suspected of cheating this year at the super high roller bowl. Martin was granted special privileges and allowed to hover over the tables Leon was playing at. With only two tables left several players at Leon's table felt Leon played perfectly vs them when Martin was standing behind them. One of the players noticed Martin appeared to be signaling to Leon. The tournament staff was notified of this and Martin was removed from the area. At the final table many players did not want to show their cards to the RFID scanners for fear Leon had comprised them.

Leon was staking two players at the final table of the WSOP little one for one drop this year. Players complained some cards were marked and new decks were brought in. These decks were marked in the exact same way. Players could identify what some cards were from the markings. Play was paused for over an hour while unmarked RFID cards were found. Leon was on the rail for this entire final table.

Leon invited Elton Tsang to a game he organized. Leon had 90% of two of the players in the world in this game (how Fedor is never questioned about this game I do not know). He lost big and refused to pay, claiming he was taken advantage of? Seems like his plan was to take advantage of Elton.

Ty Stewart of the WSOP was personally informed of these cheating allegations ahead of WSOP Europe by multiple people. He said he was aware of them but felt confident he could ensure the honesty of the event. It is unbelievable that Ceaser's took Leon's money, partnered with him and gave him credibility. They should be held accountable when Leon inevitably gets caught cheating (or something much worse happens).

Hopefully some of the people involved in the above events come forward and verify them or this gets picked up by a reporter. Having Leon pumped up as a legitimate person in the poker world is going to damage the entire industry and bring poker back to an era that should of been left behind.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:57 AM   #524
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik subpoenad - stiffed Aussie Matt and Elton Tsang for millions

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
A good system - which does not continue to serve drunks, for example - would help prevent these kinds of things from happening, and is preferable to a bad system. But a bad system does not relieve individuals of their own personal responsibility for their actions. Even if his opponent across the table, and the casino itself, were not perfect angels, the middle aged person who was undoubtedly well acquainted with both alcohol and high stakes gambling is primarily the one responsible when he gets drunk and loses millions in a casino.

I would hate to think that he could be excused from his debt, or entitled to damages, even if the circumstances he described are accurate (e.g. the casino gave him drinks and did not permit his friends to drag him away against his will).


A very well reasoned and logical assessment of the situation. +1
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:31 PM   #525
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Re: Leon Tsoukernik

solid first post
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