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Old 02-02-2009, 06:15 PM   #176
mr_stinky
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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“To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.”

“People only see what they are prepared to see.”

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"Every man supposes himself not to be fully understood or appreciated."

- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"oh snap"

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Old 02-02-2009, 06:56 PM   #177
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

No joke. You are all missing the special significance LA's results to all online pro players. He plays constantly, and is great at hunting for weaker players and, and for years has beating them with simple but solid TAG play. Thus his results are a good bellwether of how profitable the online games are. If he's having trouble now, it could very well mean there has been an important drop in the number of "fish" playing. If that's true, it would mean lower BB/100 for everybody in 2009.

Follow his results closely. It could be telling you how well your year will be. If you care about your bottom line, hope that LA starts winning again soon.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:07 PM   #178
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

I get what peoples complaints are with LA, but I mean the truth of the matter is that other than a select few... everyone's got things in common with LA just on a different scale. I believe Ike made a post in response to people b*tching about bumhunters once that said something like "All of you can basically stfu with your whining since clearly if everyone was playing everyone with no game selection it would just be me and a few other 25/50 players with all the money, if you need a game that bad you know where to always find me".

Basically we're all bum hunters to some extent... rightfully so. If not, just go 4table hu4rollz the toughest player in your games since i'm sure he wants/needs the action.

Quote:
but if one of these bumhunters (be it someone taking a shot, or someone who only plays in good games) wins the money it's likely i'll never see it again and it's removed from the 25/50 economy completely. Not to mention that one of these bumhunters might get a seat or hop on the waitlist before me and cause me to miss the gravy in my regular games.
So basically it sounds like here the difference between the reg and the bumhunter is that the other regular you are ok with because since you have an edge on him you'll likely be getting that money back in the long run but if a bumhunter gets it you'll never see it. So basically the problem is the bumhunter is making the decision to hold onto their money. Or are you trying to imply that the regular at least will be playing in the games still and you'll get another shot at that money... this argument kind of makes sense but in theory if that reg is better than you, then you're not seeing that money again anyway either, which seems to be the point of why you made sure to mention having an edge on said reg.

I understand the arguments for hating on LA when they specifically are with regard to him not helping to keep games running or get them started... but a lot of the hate on him for just bumhunting is absurd.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:23 PM   #179
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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Originally Posted by Flawless_CED View Post
I get what peoples complaints are with LA, but I mean the truth of the matter is that other than a select few... everyone's got things in common with LA just on a different scale. I believe Ike made a post in response to people b*tching about bumhunters once that said something like "All of you can basically stfu with your whining since clearly if everyone was playing everyone with no game selection it would just be me and a few other 25/50 players with all the money, if you need a game that bad you know where to always find me".

Basically we're all bum hunters to some extent... rightfully so. If not, just go 4table hu4rollz the toughest player in your games since i'm sure he wants/needs the action.


So basically it sounds like here the difference between the reg and the bumhunter is that the other regular you are ok with because since you have an edge on him you'll likely be getting that money back in the long run but if a bumhunter gets it you'll never see it. So basically the problem is the bumhunter is making the decision to hold onto their money. Or are you trying to imply that the regular at least will be playing in the games still and you'll get another shot at that money... this argument kind of makes sense but in theory if that reg is better than you, then you're not seeing that money again anyway either, which seems to be the point of why you made sure to mention having an edge on said reg.

I understand the arguments for hating on LA when they specifically are with regard to him not helping to keep games running or get them started... but a lot of the hate on him for just bumhunting is absurd.

well the regulars help keep the game running though. i dunno i could almost take that post back because i don't really give a **** about bumhunting.. hell it's probably better for me that people do bumhunt because it means a weaker player than your average reg filling a seat instead. it's just that having played with LA I can say that he is no where near the player he talks like he is. just combine all his thoughts of entitlement and posting on 2+2 after he only plays in games with megadroolers is ****ing annoying.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:26 PM   #180
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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"Quotes are a pretentious means of avoiding speaking for yourself."

- Dire
that's pretty funny right there
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:38 PM   #181
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

I understand and sympathize with what skier is saying and why people get annoyed with table selectors at those stakes where traffic is very limited but thats just the way it is and always will be. food chain of the poker eco system or whatever.

But skier, if I remember correctly it took the tremendous poker talent of guys like Steve Yeah to lure you to NL 40k right? I dont think you would have played that game against 4 other regs in the hope that a fish would sit down at some point...

Not to mention the people who bash LA in this thread who make most of their money at nosebleeds heads-up which is like the definition of bumhunting...
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:43 PM   #182
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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Originally Posted by makelovenotwar View Post
I understand and sympathize with what skier is saying and why people get annoyed with table selectors at those stakes where traffic is very limited but thats just the way it is and always will be. food chain of the poker eco system or whatever.

But skier, if I remember correctly it took the tremendous poker talent of guys like Steve Yeah to lure you to NL 40k right? I dont think you would have played that game against 4 other regs in the hope that a fish would sit down at some point...

Not to mention the people who bash LA in this thread who make most of their money at nosebleeds heads-up which is like the definition of bumhunting...
is there usually a huge waitlist for nosebleeds though? also i think some of the argument is that people like leatherass insta-sit out or in when the fish leaves or returns, and i'm guessing skier or trivial or whoever's taking a shot (and that's also ripping on leatherass for this) probably wouldn't do this.

i cbf to think about the definition of bumhunting in relation to nosebleeds hu, but my intuition tells me they're very different things because nosebleed hu players are usually playing very good people. aejones for example (because he's one of the people in this thread you're talking about) doesn't avoid that many people hu if i remember correctly.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:44 PM   #183
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

LA is obviously scary insecure. I hope u guys dont run him off like you did Brandy...
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:46 PM   #184
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

troy gamble sucks!
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:47 PM   #185
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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Originally Posted by makelovenotwar View Post
I understand and sympathize with what skier is saying and why people get annoyed with table selectors at those stakes where traffic is very limited but thats just the way it is and always will be. food chain of the poker eco system or whatever.

But skier, if I remember correctly it took the tremendous poker talent of guys like Steve Yeah to lure you to NL 40k right? I dont think you would have played that game against 4 other regs in the hope that a fish would sit down at some point...

Not to mention the people who bash LA in this thread who make most of their money at nosebleeds heads-up which is like the definition of bumhunting...
no of course i wouldn't have played, but 40knl is a big game for me - out of my roll, while LA is overrolled for 5knl (and even moreso for the other games he plays). also steve would happily sit with people sitting alone so it wasn't necessary to have the game running

i mean i'm just trying to explain how he might be a leech in words, which admittedly is somewhat difficult since he's not really harming anyone (but at the same time not benefiting anyone either). though im sure most regs would have no probs simply banning him from their games (dunno if this would be true for 1knl but theres no reason to "keep him around" at 25/50), which would suggest that he is taking something out by being present.

basically for me, it's just the way he presents himself as opposed to his method of grinding.


ps. ive lost a lot of money at nosebleeds.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:48 PM   #186
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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troy gamble sucks!
^
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:52 PM   #187
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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is there usually a huge waitlist for nosebleeds though? also i think some of the argument is that people like leatherass insta-sit out or in when the fish leaves or returns, and i'm guessing skier or trivial or whoever's taking a shot (and that's also ripping on leatherass for this) probably wouldn't do this.

i cbf to think about the definition of bumhunting in relation to nosebleeds hu, but my intuition tells me they're very different things because nosebleed hu players are usually playing very good people. aejones for example (because he's one of the people in this thread you're talking about) doesn't avoid that many people hu if i remember correctly.
heh, i try my best not to sit out, but when it's 40knl and the fish and 2 other shot takers sit out leaving me 3 handed with urindanger and durrr (or someone else super comfortable with the $$$), sorry, but i'm sitting out.

one specific example is when the whole table is shot taking save a couple people and the fish sits out and everyone but one other player who you feel has a good edge on you hu sit out. wtf do you do then? why is it your responsibility to keep the game running? but at the same time if you sit out you risk the fish leaving (they actually dont leave that often), but it's courteous to keep the game running and it's those kind of situations that probably piss people off.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:55 PM   #188
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
no of course i wouldn't have played, but 40knl is a big game for me - out of my roll, while LA is overrolled for 5knl (and even moreso for the other games he plays). also steve would happily sit with people sitting alone so it wasn't necessary to have the game running

i mean i'm just trying to explain how he might be a leech in words, which admittedly is somewhat difficult since he's not really harming anyone (but at the same time not benefiting anyone either). though im sure most regs would have no probs simply banning him from their games (dunno if this would be true for 1knl but theres no reason to "keep him around" at 25/50), which would suggest that he is taking something out by being present.

basically for me, it's just the way he presents himself as opposed to his method of grinding.


ps. ive lost a lot of money at nosebleeds.
i don't think leatherass on his own hurts games much at all. i think everyone game selecting like leatherass would hurt games significantly. i think people who lecture/chastise others about being bumhunters tend to be hypocritical - there's no doubt i am a bumhunter, but i will sit in less than hugely +EV games in an attempt to generate one. it used to be that you could sit alone at a table on any site and immediately donks would flock to you. that's just not the case anymore, so sometimes you've got to sit with non-droolers in hopes that some fish come by.

anyway it's mostly a silly debate like skier said and i think it's funny that leatherass thinks he is this great poker player when in truth he is just outstanding at everything about poker that isn't poker.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:58 PM   #189
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

funny that game selectors are the new shortstackers. u guys are just hypocrites.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:02 PM   #190
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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funny that game selectors are the new shortstackers. u guys are just hypocrites.
bah. im not trying to hate on game selectors (as i am one myself, though not to the extent of LA), just trying to explain how when it's done to the absolute extremes it can be annoying.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:04 PM   #191
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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heh, i try my best not to sit out, but when it's 40knl and the fish and 2 other shot takers sit out leaving me 3 handed with urindanger and durrr (or someone else super comfortable with the $$$), sorry, but i'm sitting out.

one specific example is when the whole table is shot taking save a couple people and the fish sits out and everyone but one other player who you feel has a good edge on you hu sit out. wtf do you do then? why is it your responsibility to keep the game running? but at the same time if you sit out you risk the fish leaving (they actually dont leave that often), but it's courteous to keep the game running and it's those kind of situations that probably piss people off.
yeah, well i mean both spots are obviously really extreme compared to leatherass, who if he was the player he says he is could take on any 5/10 reg, just with a lower winrate. therefore he shouldn't have a problem staying in an orbit or two. alot less scary than facing arguably two of the best players in the world at huge stakes for you.

also i think most people have a problem with him 'bumhunting' in games that, like you said, aren't that big for him (like 5knl) and also his standard games. meh, i don't really care and still respect leatherass for how much he makes, just chipping in.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:07 PM   #192
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

there is nothing wrong w/ game selecting...its when someone takes it so far as to not put themselves in any -ev spot even when they know it is going to hurt the games. i dont blame anyone for not sitting in the toughest games running at each level but there is such a thing as taking it too far. sitting out when a fish sits out and back in when the fish sits back in is taking it too far for one.

the funny thing is lots of ppl do things like this and it gets ignored...but then again lots of ppl dont talk publicly about how they are or if they put in more time working on their game away from the tables, the best MSNL player from 2/4-10/20.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:13 PM   #193
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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wow. at first it's actually not bad. despite being ridiculously long-winded (jesus christ, it's honestly not that complicated of a concept, it could have been explained in 5 lines), dogishead makes a fair point, and it's something people don't think about often enough

but when it devolves into "so don't tell me you run bad, you don't even know what it is to run bad, i run ****ing bad" in the final paragraphs, i mean give me a ****' break

Ok, ya, this is what I was alluding to earlier.

As for the bold: "If in short succession you have KK and lose AIPF to QQ 5 times, that's running bad, BUT running KK into QQ 5 times is running good... So, it's very difficult if not impossibly abstract to actually try to quantify 'running bad'... Abracadabra!!"
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:24 PM   #194
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

Losing with KK a bunch of times when somebody else happens to have AA is also running bad even though it won't show up on your EV graph as such.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:25 PM   #195
makelovenotwar
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

[QUOTE=skier_5;8541279]

basically for me, it's just the way he presents himself as opposed to his method of grinding.

[QUOTE]


fair enough. Like I said his blog is whiney but I thinks its just his process for dealing with negative variance.

It's actually pretty telling that you are one of the most chilled out guys discussing this issue who actually plays in those games. And in my mind that's cos you are not affiliated with any training sites.

The real reason for all this smack talk is the need to appear cool infront of the 2p2 community. These guys realised that having 10.000 people pay 30$/month is much better money than grinding could ever be.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:26 PM   #196
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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funny that game selectors are the new shortstackers. u guys are just hypocrites.
o how the mighty have fallen
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:26 PM   #197
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

cool but I run worse
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:15 PM   #198
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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LOL leatherass is such a clown.

I love all the poker talent that comes in this thread and bashes LA, and a bunch of micro grinders who thinks he makes poker videos that actually help them come in here and defend them-- it's v funny.

Also, him coming in this thread and typing out RWE quotes is HILARIOUS and classic LA
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:03 AM   #199
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

Such jealous haters in this thread....very entertaining. Most of you guys come across as whiney biitches.

Leatherheads quote was a classy attempt to answer an angry mob. GG IMO
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:37 AM   #200
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Re: leatherass runs bad :(

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I love all the poker talent that comes in this thread and bashes LA, and a bunch of micro grinders who thinks he makes poker videos that actually help them come in here and defend them-- it's v funny.

this
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