What’s the rationale for late registering for tournaments? It seems there’s a lot of easy chips to be had in the early goings so I don’t really understand why people choose to late register.

Apologies if this has been posted as nauseam but I just don’t get the logic.

Apology accepted

because your stack is then worth more than the buyin, makes a lot more sense to late reg in tougher fields

If you have an edge on the entire field there isn't a great one except valuing your time spent elsewhere more than some EV in one donkament.

No. It's the answer above yours

More likely to cash if you latereg, less likely to win though. Which is why max late-regging satellites is so common, especially where's there's no rebuy or in tough fields

I suppose from an ICM perspective but does that totally negate the EV from playing earlier against a weaker field? I suppose that’s why you say it’s a better idea for tougher fields.

Hourly win rates and screen space are a thing as well.

yes in a weaker field you probably gain from making easier chips from recreational players, whereas against a tough field where edges are much thinner then getting that free 3-4% ROI from late regging is worth it

Party Poker are remving late reg on a lot of their tornies, or greatly reducing it

Um, how about because gambling and drugs are very similar to the brain. Cashing, releases dopamine and increases testosterone. Busting before late registration closes, or even before the money, does not.

According to psychology professor Ian Robertson, of Trinity College in Dublin, "Winning's probably the single most important thing in shaping people's lives."

Robertson has studied winning, and what winning can mean. "All species have hierarchies," he told Spencer. "And your position in that hierarchy will determine your health, your mental function, your mood."


Robertson argues in his book, "The Winner Effect," that the reason it's so much fun to win is largely chemical. "Winning increases testosterone, which in turn increases the chemical messenger dopamine, and that dopamine hits the reward network in the brain, which makes us feel better."

People that "win", feel good. People that "lose", feel bad. Addicts feel great and horrible, non addicts feel "meh" regardless. Playing a tournament for 5 hours and then being knocked out by someone who just registered, will feel very bad to some people. They will remember this feeling. People forget what you said, or what you did, but they never forget how you made them feel.

They could of been having a drink, working out, or doing anything that would make them "feel" good, and not take 5-12 hours to do it. Over time they will give up on playing a tournament early, because the memory of the bad feeling will overtake the joy. It's hard to win, but much easier to bust in 5 hours playing online.

We are increasingly becoming a society of instant gratification, hence why progressive knockout tournaments are so popular. Instant gratification, is basically the quick release of dopamine. Also why Tik Tok is huge. The world is going faster with the expectation that the speed will continue. They want it, but they want it now. Poker, is going slower, and slower, and slower, now with 5 hour late registration for a $15 tournament.

It's cool to say that most people that play poker aren't like those crazy blackjack and roulette players, but in the end we're mainly just addicts. A huge percentage of people playing could be doing much better things with their lives, including myself. But few things bring the dopamine like winning, and we become chemical chasers.

Also, late registration is basically just sales manipulation. Tournaments aren't what they used to be, and there's many reasons for it. Laws scaring people, cheating, RTA, backing groups sending ten people in the same tournament, people getting deep and getting on skype to get all the help in the world, the best players swapping percentages and having a 0% bluff frequency vs each other, re entries and how much of an edge it increases for the people who already have an edge, etc,.

There's many reasons why poker tournaments at this moment should have smaller prize pools, but the tournament directors or salesmen, have manipulated the game with Re Entries and Late Reg, to give you the "appearance" that everything is alive and well. When we all know it's not.

Late registration in my opinion is worse than re entries for one simple reason. The most important thing in sales, is time. If you can't get a prospects time, you can basically throw away any opportunity at selling them a product. In poker tournaments, we've lost the urgency. You now have 5 hours to decide if you would like to play an online tournament, or drive to Venice Beach from Vegas, have lunch, start heading back, and then enter.

Poker tournaments used to be about urgency. You have one hour, and once you're in, you're in. Now, you have 5 hours, and once you're in, you can bust and do whatever, then come back and analyze the field to see what your potential is, and then determine whether or not that's worth it to you. If you see in the tournament lobby that ThePokerGuru on ACR has 300 big blinds, and that there's only 35 people registered in the high roller on ACR, some people would say entering that tournament with 15bbs is a losing bet.

Also, saying the people who initially enter a field are weaker players, is far from true from what I've seen. Recreational players don't want to, or simply can't put 12 hours in on one tournament. A recreational player has a job, and they may enter a 5 hour late reg tournament at the beginning, only to realize 12 hours later that it's 3 in the morning and they have to be at work at 9. Even if they win, it'll be somewhat bitter sweet.

This will cause them to "feel" or release less dopamine, and more than likely stop playing.

Boy, you really went to town here.

Yes, we know “winning” feels better than losing. But how are you defining winning in this context? Min-cashing? Taking first place? Either way, you have to show that late registering puts you in a better position to accomplish that goal. I’m asking in the OP for the logical reason why late registering accomplishes that.

Sounds like you’re arguing that late registering is to avoid the potential for an early bust out?

I late reg everything because I'm a worse player than the whole player pool. Looking to join at 15bb so all my decisions are preflop either jam or fold. Ez game for me

Whenever I go... I go to town. That's me

In simpler terms, receiving anything from poker, from even something as small as a food comp, to a min cash, will more than likely release dopamine in someone's brain, and cause one to feel good. Hence why people clap when they get into the money. Or how they'll joke about how they got a $200 whiskey and coke after busting a tournament, yet getting a drink. They are finding the positive in a negative situation. Dopamine and positivity are hand in hand.

The more you play poker, like the more a heroin addict shoots heroin, the less dopamine is released, or at least felt, inside your brain. The more you use, the more you need in order to "feel". Heroin, poker, weed, alcohol, doesn't matter. Min cashing means nothing to most pros, and everything to some recreational players. I've seen people cry when cashing a Venetian $250 deepstack, and I'm sure we've all seen pros ridicule players who are going for the min cash and how it means nothing. Neither is wrong.

The main thing is most people are not winners in poker. That's just the truth. The mass majority who have ever played, end up losing money. So like people who "need" heroin, losing players need a reason to keep playing. If heroin stops getting them high, or pain killers are too much money and they can't afford the high, an addict will find something that will. If poker tournaments stop making the losing players feel good, they'll find something that will.

If you were to hook up a device to scan your brain for when dopamine is released, min cashing would definitely highlight certain receptors in your brain. At least for a lot of people who are not used to poker and the dopamine that's released. Aka new players we want in the game. Those are the people that we want and actually need in the game. The players who still enjoy it. It's awesome to see people happy over nothing. When you see this, you feel this. We are all transferring energy at every second whether we realize it or not.

The players from 15 years ago complaining how a min cash isn't worth it to them, they can't make a living with a higher percentage of people getting paid, and with no re entries they would of wasted their time coming to the event, really aren't good for the game or the players who actually "feel good" playing poker, imo. And those players should probably be playing cash games anyway, where there's no min cash, no percentage pay outs, and unlimited re entries.

Late registration putting you in a "better position" is an opinion. Some players feel any opportunity to enter a tournament with any select player field, puts them in a "better position". Some players won't enter a tournament if they'll have less than 20 big blinds. The beautiful thing about life, is with enough words in your vocabulary, you can appear right.

I enter rebuy tournaments at the last second of late reg for all rebuys that I play on wsop. And here's my graph:




Would I ever tell someone trying to play poker in today's climate to do that? Of course not. But I'm fully confident in my 10-20 bb stack game, and my graphs prove it. I value doing anything, over sitting for 2 and a half hours, and then having less chips than if I were to just register at the very end. It happened many times, and happens to many people that I see in those tournaments.

Since I have the mind of an addict, I quickly stopped doing that after it made me question my purpose in life. If people want to enjoy poker, then they can do things to where it's still enjoyable. If people want to solely maximize how much money they make, then they can do things to make that true also.

And I'm not arguing late regging is to avoid a bustout. I'm explaining that late registering, means something different to everyone. Newton or someone said something about, "in relation to" and how all things are relative. Everything is in relation to the eye of the beholder. If we're talking about a game where 85% of players will consistently have a negative experience, meaning not cashing, then figuring out what it means to them, is more important for the game, then figuring out what it means to you. In terms of the long term outlook for poker tournaments.

In sales you are supposed to get an agenda on the customer by asking questions, and figure out the reasons they want your product. Once you do this, it's much easier to sell your product. I 100% respect the ACR owner for even taking the chance on providing a site to Americans when few people are, but I 100% disagree that what he's doing with the tournaments will be beneficial in the long run.

Came back to town, and now I'm out

Dueces

Poker needs to go back to 1 hour late registration for almost all games, 2 hours for bigger buyin games that have a slower structure, and longer than 2 hours for bigger buyin series events.

I only late reg to tournies (if there's an addon at last reg) and I play alot. Reason for me is I'm action junky and simply put the earlier stages is extremely boring and more often then not, I can late reg and get more chips then I would trying to grind out the earlier stages (usually with add-on). And unless you get a table full of fish/bad players, capitalizing on lower blind stages can be difficult.

you are effectively playing for higher buyin tournament when late registering if you can sustain the same winrate because if you win 5bb/hr with a starting buyin for 20bb you make 5x as much as a starting buyin of 100bb. Obviously an over simplification but it shows how bbs are worth more later in a tournament so that time is typically more valuable to winrate. Obviously depends on strength of field at different stages of tournament winrate of deep vs short etc but playing 1k bb starting stack level in a tournament makes it hard to have a good winrate even if your winrate is like 10-20bb/hr since you win 1/50-1/100 of a starting stack an hour which chip value wise isnt even worth 1-2% of a buyin. Late registering is higher variance and will cause lower average return so more bankroll intensive if you calculate RoR though which is the major downside.

Late entry value depends on ones perspective. If you enter late, you are are guaranteed to finish in the money, or closer to the money than if you start from the beginning. So you may have more near misses for cashes, and more cashes, though mostly min cashes, so they keep the morale up than early knock outs far from the money.

It saves time entering late, which is a plus.

It is simpler beng short stacked, push or fold, so once you know which hands to go all in with, late entry kind of plays itself.

The downside is late entrants are short stacked, so need to hit cards against bigger stacked players one has no fold equity against. And being card dependent is not a good way to play.

Also it is good to play early and hoover up chips from the bad players before others knock them out. But entering late all the bad players are gone, and it is all a tough field left.

Results speak for themself, so try late entry, and see how you find it, it works for some, not for others.

Personally having tried early and late entry I prefer early entry, as the chance to get a big stack, and all the freedom that gives in lots of ways, is worth the time it takes to start from the beginning, Plus of course the fact one isnt card dependent from the start of ones play, so have more chance to play smarter poker than just push and fold.

I late reg because early levels are boring

I'd have to figure out which episode it was, but I recall Jimmy Fricke answering your very question quite well on Poker Road Radio back in the day.

If memory serves, he drew up an extreme example as an illustration: suppose you could wait until the exact money bubble, then buy in for the starting stack, even if it's only a BB or two. You would do it in a heartbeat, because the chances of profiting on your buy-in, even that paltry stack, would be incredibly high.

Anyway, Xeno's response – and your response to his – tells me you have your answer. But I thought I would throw in Fricke's example because I also asked your question quite a bit, and it helped me see it better. If I can find Gobbo's exact words at some point, I'll transcribe them here.

Kenny Hallaert did a study to show it is advantageous to late reg. So in fairness, it should be cut back quite a bit. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...kvpDR0lx4/edit

Yes.

And the time you save could be used for something else, like playing a cash game: opportunity cost.

Most losing players would have a smaller disadvantage comming late and shoving on the early streets a lot, especially preflop.

The benefits to comming on time for those with the right skills are obvious. Also, starting early provides pleasures to many pleasure players.